Advancements in Legal Ops Training - Mat Jakubowski

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Today on the show we have Matt Jakubowski, and we're gonna be talking about a, a good number of things in the, the legal tech space. Uh, but before we get into, uh, exactly what we're gonna be talking about, uh, I'd like Matt, uh, to welcome Matt first off, and, uh, and secondly, Matt, would love to get a little bit more on your background, how you got into this space, and, um, anything else you'd like to tell the listeners. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Hi, Marc. Hi, Pepe. It's, uh, certainly a pleasure to be part of this podcast.

0:55Um, yeah, it's, it, it, I've been, I've been a fan, uh, of, of this podcast as well in the past, so yeah, this is, this, this is really great opportunity for me, uh, to, to be here. Um, so I was, I was recently thinking about my experience and how many years I've been doing things in legal, and it's been almost 10 years. It's, it's crazy. I mean, time flies. Uh, so, um, uh, yeah, my experience is, is, is pretty much in legal. So in the past I've been working in-house for a couple years, um, and you know, just to, just doing regular in-house, um, in, in, in-house stuff, so to say, and that was a c- a few, a few years back. So there was, yeah, that was, that was pretty much manual. So, so that what pushed me into, uh, the legal tech world, because I felt like there's, the legal industry, it's much more than, uh, than dealing with contracts, formatting Word documents, uh, dealing with, dealing with sales, and sort of that regular in-house type of, um, practicing the law.

2:00So I went into, uh, legal tech, uh, and that, that was so, that was, that really opened the door because I felt like, uh, I could have, uh, I can have a say not only at, at what my company does, but also as, as how the industry is, is sort of, um, going from, from manual to digital. Uh, because yeah, working, w- working in, in, in this, in this space really allows you to, to be part of something, something bigger than just your, uh, your company legal affairs or legal, legal, legal matters. So yeah, that's, uh, that's that. Been working for quite big companies, quite big firms in the past. I'm sure you can, you can ch- you can sort of check that out on my LinkedIn profile. Then I've opened my, um, consultancy, uh, company in, in the UK. Uh, and yeah, here I am. Uh, and you know, it's, it's, my experience is pretty much a blend of legal and, and tech, but I would say it's mainly legal. When I graduated from law school, uh, you know, there was, there was no such th- uh, such thing as legal te- legal tech, and there was no such...

3:11The, the, the standard legal path was the only path that I, I, I, I knew about. Alternative legal paths weren't really a thing. They were, um, yeah, pretty much a, I would say a taboo, and the, the legal tech was, you know, Westlaw, Lexis, Lexis, that was the, the legal tech that we, we've been, we've been, uh, we, we had at law school. So it was, it was pretty, the, the, um, the perspective and the narrative was really different than it is now. I'm really glad to see that, uh, yeah, it's changing. So that's a few words about my, my experience and sort of where I'm coming from. It's great to have you in the show, Matt. And I think, uh, there's a lot of things that we can talk about, and it's really cool that you have all this legal background. I think we have a lot of things in common. I was also working in legal for a couple of years before, uh, hitting on the, on the legal tech space, which, uh, I would say that just, I don't know, maybe, uh, you, you agree with me, but it's been pretty, like, four, three years maximum that now if you go to the profiles, you know, a lot of people on LinkedIn now, they're legal tech experts, right?

4:18But then I think there's a whole new things, uh, well, not new things. There's a lot of things that you gotta do before jumping into legal tech, right? Because I think one of the, uh, of the big mistakes of companies, and now that you say that you've been working with in-house, uh, teams, is that they think that technology is like a magic wand, right? They know that they've been doing things super slow, that they'd have no KPIs, they have no idea who's working on what, and they think by just hiring, uh, a piece of software, it's going to solve all their problems, right? And there's a lot of different kind of softwares out there, right? There, there are the cheap ones or the free ones, there, there are really expensive ones. But the, but the cool things, uh, I mean, the, the first steps that you gotta do is something that another guest called, Tom Fuchs call us, called it, it's the phase zero, right? To understand your processes and then go one step at a time, right?

5:15So in, uh, before we start talking about all the high tech and, and everything that is, uh, out in the market, I want you to, uh, if you could talk about like, uh, understand what tools and processes you, you have at your disposal for free. Because this, the first step is not that complicated. Like, can you give us a little bit on, uh, on how you've been working with some of your clients on your consulting services about this? Yeah, that's a good point. Uh, that's a great question. Uh, when we sort of discuss legal tech, uh, people think that legal tech is something, uh, sort of made to measure, to fit the legal, legal industry and something only made for lawyers. But you can u- you can use regular Microsoft Office Suite to really help, to really get that lo- that, that lo- uh, low hanging fruits, uh, that you, that you want within your document Uh, life cycle. And there are, there are so many, so many apps, you know, that you can, you can get it for free. So yeah, starting with the Microsoft Office Suite.

6:18Um, you know, MS Teams, it's a great platform that can help you with communication, that you can, you can have a lot of different items that, um, can help you plan things. You can have a, uh, Kanban board to, to really assign tasks to your, to your team members, to your stakeholders, create approvals, whatever suits your needs, whatever suits your, uh, document lifecycle management needs. And, and that is, that is great, but it's, it's not used because it's perhaps not, uh, the most user-friendly experience, I, I've noticed, because you- people use MS Teams a- as though it was just a communication platform. It's much more than that. You can, you can get quite a, quite a good value out of, out of MS Teams. In general, um, even, even Excel, I mean, Excel doesn't have the best press. I mean, people... If, if you say, "Oh, we can do this using... We c- we can automate things, so we can do quite a, quite a bit of a automation using Excel," the, the standard, the standard... So this is the standard, uh, reaction is not, uh, super, super positive, I would say. It's not, it's not like everyone is super excited to be using Excel. But at the end of the day, it's still a very powerful tool that you can use.

7:34You can save time, and you can get a lot of value from, uh, instead of getting e- external platforms, because I 100% agree with what you said before, that getting technology is, is, is definitely not the first step. The first step is understanding your pain points, understanding your processes, and understanding pe- people behaviors within your organizations to see how they interact with contracts, how they interact with clients, what are the big- bigger bottlenecks in your, i- in the doc- in the, in the contract story. So that, that, that's quite, um, quite important. Um, so for, in terms of the free ones, um, there's also, there's also, uh, a number of solutions that are, uh, sort of made to map processes. So I, I know of, uh, Miro, MindMeister. They are quite good when it, when you want to visualize things and show them in a, in a, in a way that can be, um, yeah, can, can, can be more visually pleasing.

8:36Because if you say something in a, in an email, it might make sense to you, it might make sense to your, um, to your, to your colleagues, but, uh, there is, there is much, there is much more that you can do with those visualization, especially when it comes to process, because it's just so much easier. I've noticed so much easier to discuss a process if you have a map. If it, it, it doesn't have to be the sort of state-of-the-art map. It can be just a simple, simple, simple graph of, of sort of what, of dependencies, who needs to approve what, what processes, what contracts, what clients, what clauses even. It helps. It helps a lot, because that is the starting point when it comes to any sort of innovation within your firm. Because if you don't have your, if you don't know your processes, you can't really automate, because you can automate the inef- inefficient way of, of doing things.

9:30So that is, that is certainly good, and you can, you can, you can see those processes visualized, yeah, using, using basic tools like, yeah, like I said, Miro, for example. It's, it's quite, quite good for that. Yeah. And, a- and, you know, that, that also helps you delegate things because you, it's not necessarily a tool that can be free of charge, but also you can delegate things. You can have your processes and see which processes can be sort of, c- can, can be moved from a senior person to a, to, to a mid, mid-level person or junior person perhaps. There is, there is so many things that can be, y- y- you can delegate. Obviously, there are considerations regarding the risk, the value, client relationships. Not everything can be done in a, in a way that can be delegated. But I think it's important to, to really, yeah, focus, focus on, uh, on whether you can, y- you can also delegate tasks, and that, that's obviously tech-free. You don't have to have the technology to delegate things.

10:32But if you have it, if you, if you have some sort of understanding of what's going on within your, uh, yeah, within the legal department, that helps, helps a lot. And also, yeah, also for the, for the, for the other part, like if you want to introduce legal technology, you can use those, those, uh, low-hanging fruits to, to, to see the, the, to see what picture you have within your, uh, within your organization. And the good thing is that, well, even Miro, they have a, a premium version that you can use. Like, uh, I think there are, like, three boards, and they, they have a lot of templates there, and I would say it's, like, the best online whiteboard where you can do a lot of brainstorming, especially right now that we're doing everything at home, right? You can just log in with your team. Ev- everybody will be able to, uh, to stick Post-its, right, with their ideas, try to map all their processes. And of course, there's a lot of different... If you just, like, Google and go on YouTube to see, uh, some online trainings on how to use, uh, a little bit of automations on Microsoft Word, um, Excel, and even Outlook.

11:36There's a lot of tools that people are not using there, right? That you can do that for free. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, I mean, w- Matt was touching about at the end there, um, i- and the importance of understanding your processes. You know, we get into a, a lot of these, uh, opportunities that we're working, where we're working with prospective clients, and, um, you know, th- they don't have any real idea of, of what kind of processes they wanna automate. They just think that you buy a piece of technology, and, and from there, you're gonna be able to, to push everything, you know, along faster and smoother than ever before. Uh, and, and that's where we always like to kinda slow things down and, and make sure that they understand that even though if we can get in there, we can suggest best practices, but, but only they know their business. And unless we're gonna sit there for, for months or, you know, at least a month and, and really dig into their processes, it always makes more sense to slow down a little bit, help them build those out, let them also work internally to build those processes out, and then take the next step forward with, uh, with technology. Um, and, and I think, you know, Matt, that kinda brings us into our next question here is, uh, y- technology's great, but, but you also need to have the folks in place to, to really be able to leverage that te- technology to its fullest extent.

12:47So h- how do you go about finding and, and hiring the right individuals to, to work in these, uh, you know, the in-house role, the, the contract management role, uh, maybe a legal ops role? How, how do you go out there and, and make sure that you're finding the best people to, to fit not only your organization, you know, the culture, but, but also show that, um, that they're excited and they, and they want to work with technology as we move in, you know, to this next, next decade? Yeah. I mean, this is quite, quite an important part in the whole, of the whole legal, l- legal tech introduction experience because you, you, you have to have individuals that will know what to do, how to do it, and understand the process. Uh, so yeah, I mean, I would say, and that might be a little bit controversial, some people will, uh, will, will agree with me and some not, is that you should really have a person that has legal experience, maybe worked as a lawyer, or maybe worked with, or, or, or simply had a, even, even a little legal degree helps be- with, with some sort of, yeah, pro bono experience or internships because they are able to understand the, uh, bread and butter of a, a lawyer's work. Uh, because legal, legal tech or innovation, digital transformation, however you wanna call it, yeah, quite a bit of it is, is, it's about sort of having that legal understanding of what's going on within your, within your, uh, legal, w- within the legal part of the organization. Of course, there's much more to that. But I think that legal experience is quite, quite important.

14:24Understanding of, of contracts, I mean, understanding how, you know, how the red- how red lining works, how, uh, the importance of clauses, importance of, say, limitation of liabilities, uh, things like that. It's, it, it, it really helps if you know sort of, uh, if, if you know the gravity of certain parts of the contract because you, you have the contentious part of the contract, and you have very simple, uh, part of the, of the contract that you can, uh, you don't have to sort of, uh, break a sweat on. So, so that's, I would say, number one, to have a good understanding of, um, yeah, of, of how legal processes work, how contracting works, uh, how, uh, client relationships work. Um, another part is, um, project management as well because when it comes, when it comes to those, those, those innovation projects, um, you get a lot of hype at the beginning.

15:28You get a lot of, uh, go aheads, sort of a lot of po- positive, uh, feedback at the beginning. But it's about keeping the momentum going, and it's about making sure that people know what to do at every part of the, of the project. So I feel like this is quite, quite important because innovation is, it's really about bringing the value to the, to the organization, to your, your company, to your firm. Bringin- bringing that KPI, so what we want to, what, what is it that we want to achieve with that automation, let's say, automation, uh, process. Is it that we want to reduce the time of, uh, executing a contract? Because, as we know, time kills contracts. Uh, and that's why we want to, we want to make sure that it doesn't take, it doesn't take weeks and weeks to, to complete the contract. Uh, it takes, it's, it's down to, let's say, a couple, couple of days, I don't know, weeks.

16:22It is important to have that sort of, um, value, uh, focused mindset, uh, yeah, because innovation can be s- seen as a, "Wow, it's, it's innovative. It's different. It's great." But if it doesn't bring value, it's not great. You need to be focused on that value that is, that can be achieved through, uh, through innovation. Um, I would also say, uh, business acumen, so we need to understand a little bit about a business. I'm not saying to sort of be an expert at everything, to be an expert in, at accounting, uh, you know, marketing, recruitment and, and things like that. It's, it's a value. It's, it's, I would say, it's a value add. So it's something that you can have. It's great if you understand that we are a business. Even if, even if we are a, a law firm, and even if we work with, with lawyers, or even if we work with, uh, in-house legal teams, we are a business.

17:17We need to generate certain revenue, and we need to be focused on that, and that is quite, quite important for the person to, to understand that. And that, that, uh, overlaps with my previous point, which is value, uh, focused mindset. And, um, what else? Um, yeah, I would say technology also helps because to know a little bit about how certain solutions work, it is quite important. Like you, you have to know how document automation tools work. For example, if you work on a document automation solution, you need to know sort of how you create value using those, those solutions. Um, but I was, I'm just thinking about sort of my experience and, you know, when I graduated from, from law school or where, when I was working, when I started working in more in legal tech, my ex- my, my knowledge of technology was, was minimal. So you can, you, you can learn that on the job. You can learn a lot, uh, just, just seeing how legal tech is utilized, uh, by your stakeholders, sort of how to create value using, um, using legal tech. You can attend webinars.

18:37There are so many things that you can- there is, there are so many tools, so many, uh, resource, resources that you can use to educate yourself in that technology department. So when it comes to sort of s- recruiting a new person, like I said, uh, legal, project management, a little bit of business acumen are important. Tech element is, it's a nice to have, but I wouldn't, yeah, it wouldn't be sort of the, um, the deal breaker for me if a person was, was amazing at those points and, and they would say, "Oh, actually, I have no, no idea about document automation. I have no idea about, uh, sort of AI document review or something like that." That is, that is something that can be learned, and I'm sure legal tech providers are happy to educate, um, educate professionals that are working with them within those projects.

19:29And, and Matt, I mean, w- h- what have you seen from folks that are, let's say they're not in the legal space, but they are looking to get into, into either the legal space or, or the legal tech space. Um, have you found, like, an entry level role that, that most people kind of make that transition into? Is it, is it sales? Is it, um, another part of the, the contracting department? What does that look like? So entry level, um, well, yeah, I mean, it, it really depends on, on, on, on your, on your company. It really depends how you see yourself. Are you seeing, are you seeing yourself more on, more on a, yeah, like you said, sales side or more of, more of a implementation side, marketing side even, because that's also quite, quite an important part of legal operations in general. So what I see is that a lot of legal tech vendors, they want-- they, they are not looking for someone with a huge amount of experience. So I would say if you are a, um, if you feel if you are a lawyer or if you have the legal experience, legal background, I feel like the easiest way to get into that legal tech, uh, route is to sort of contact legal tech providers because they are happy to train you. They are happy to get you on board because they do value your legal experience. And that is, that is quite, yeah, this is, this is quite great. And actually I get this question, uh, quite a lot, how to get into legal tech.

20:56Yeah, I would say legal tech vendors, because when it comes to bigger organizations, um, and firms, the, the requirements are higher. So you would have to have a bit more experience working on legal tech projects, introducing innovation and sort of that is something that you don't have, you, you don't have if you don't have that legal tech, uh, sort of experience. Um, so, so yeah, I would say, I would say legal tech vendors, they are quite open to, yeah, to, to hire you if you have some sort of legal tech, sorry, legal, legal experience, legal background. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense as well. And again, I mean, there is, you know, other ways to, to break in. I mean, we-- well, I just kind of stumbled into this space. At least Pepe has some, some legal background, but, uh, you know, again, I mean, sales is sales, right?

21:45So if you are looking to get into legal tech and you are, uh, in a sales role or even a marketing role, um, you know, there are organizations out there that'll definitely give you a shot. Um, so, so Matt, with that said, let's say that, um, we've, we've done an evaluation. We understand our processes. We've got some free tools out there that we're leveraging. We're starting to see some holes in, in where, um, things are falling down. Maybe we're missing some renewal dates. Uh, the contracting process isn't as smooth as we'd like. Um, a-and we've hired the right people. They're, they're definitely helping with the processes. How, how do, how do you go about evaluating, um, those types of software solutions that you're, you're going to pick? Um, how do you know which ones to start looking at? Are you, you know, are you looking at, like, maybe a Gartner report or something like that? Are you trying to, to talk with some peers that are maybe using some other tools that are out there? H-how do you go about starting that evaluation process so that you can make sure you're looking at the right tools to help with the issues that your team is running into? So maybe I'll start slightly differently.

22:42So maybe I'll just start with what not to, how not to start your, your search or how, how not to scout legal tech solutions, um, and I can, I can see it pretty regularly, uh, is, is that you hear one of your partners, if you work in a firm, that they want to int- they want that particular tool to be part of... They, they want to sort of-- They like the tool. They've seen a few videos. Maybe they have a friend that works for that, for that, um, for that provider, and they want to get that tool. So that is not a way to get legal tech because you're not supposed to s- you're not supposed to start with solutions in the first place. Full stop. You need to start with understanding what you want from the s- from the legal tech solution. So coming back to what I said before, uh, analyzing your pain points and making them sort of, sort of making, making a clear list of what you want the legal tech solution to help you with, help you with because you might, if you, if you sort of start with, uh, s- uh, quite a, quite a, um, blurry vision of what you want to do and then you go and then you sort of search for those solutions, it's gonna be a long process because you're gonna, you're gonna have a, a lot of those nice to haves and you're gonna see, "Oh, this tool does this and this tool does that and it's great and it looks amazing."

24:15But if you don't have a clear, clear idea of what actually you want to do with this tool, you are going to struggle because a lot of tools they have, uh, they have, they, they, they, they need to differen- differentiate somehow. So one tool does this, one tool does something else, one tool is cheaper, one tool is more, uh, is addressed more for law firms. One is more for, say, um, smaller, smaller companies, medium-size, size companies. So there is definitely a huge choice. There is a plethora of legal tech solutions. So you need to have a clear vision as what you want to do and, and what I do, for example, I have a clear list sort of po- of points one to one what I want my user to be able to do. So starting with, you know, uh, starting with, let's say, um, oh, generate, um, or, or even having, having a draft.

25:10So opening, opening a draft and then, and then you want to, um, have a number of different drafts for them to, to, to choose. So maybe asking a, asking a question regarding sort of let's say NDA. You want to, uh, what, what sort of NDA you want, um, one way or mutual and, and sort of I want a clear understanding of the Uh, of the user journey before I contact any of, of, of those solutions. Because if I have that, I a- already in my mind have the understanding of what our must-haves are. If they can provide us some, some nice-to-haves, we can, we, we know, we can, we can ex- we can release, we can see the difference between what we want and what we might want. So what, what, what, what is nice, nice-to-have to us. So that's a, that's a starting point. And then, yeah, once you have the list, you contact those, uh, those legal tech providers, um, and see how they are, they are able to tackle that list. Because some of...

26:20Yeah, and, and, and, and see that the response as to, you know, what, what, what's the way of, of sort of solving those, those issues, those pain points that you have. But yeah, it all starts with, um, all starts with that. And yeah, quite, uh, frankly, be realistic. Like, you, I think it's better to start with something smaller than to have a, a long wish list of like, "I would love to, you know, this, this tool to integrate with everything that we have in our organization," or, "I would love it to sort of, sort all the problems that we have in our legal team." That is not realistic, and that is, that is maybe possible, but that would take a long period of time. So I think it's also about, um, having that list that is, that is quite, quite realistic, and also that you can implement it in a short period of time. Because, yeah, we, the, the lawyers in general, we have a limited amount of time, and we can focus on, and we can focus on innovation, but not full time.

27:23So you need to sort of have those quick wins, the q- quick wins that you can, uh, you can prove your success, and that way you can sort of move in, m- move on to, uh, next steps of your journey. So, uh, yeah, those are a few points regarding sort of how to find a, a good solution, how to start searching for the right tool. Um, yeah, and, and there is, there's obviously there is, there's a lot going on in the market. So also if you have friends, also if you have professionals that you know in the similar organization to, to yours, ask them. Ask them what they use, how they use it. Maybe they're able to share it. I mean, that's, that's... This, this, this industry is, is quite small, so there is definitely, a word of mouth is definitely quite, quite a good, um, way to, to find out what other companies or other firms are doing, um, given sort of th- their size. So that's also another way to, to start the search. Right. And I will add another thing that you shouldn't do when you are looking for a new piece of technology is just letting that work to the IT team.

28:31I mean, they know all the technology part, how do they will be installed in their, uh, in their company. But the thing is, like, the IT team does not necessarily understand how the legal team works and what's the communication be- between the other, the other departments. So I would say it's, uh, it's very important to be involved there, right? Because you know what you're looking for, you know your pain points. And in case, well, we know that most of the companies, they let the IT team to go into this, uh, uh, type of, of task. One recommendation that I would say is, like, there are some companies such as Gartner, that they, uh, publish researches such as the CLM crit- critical capabilities. Like, if you don't know where to start, well, there are some reports that can tell you what are the critical capabilities that you have to look in, into, not CLM. It can be eCM to platform, document, uh, management, et cetera, right? So, uh, Matt, I also would like to close with one, uh, with another question, is in, in, in this, a- another problem, right?

29:32Like, let's say you already got all your processes, you're, you already went into talking with different vendors, you already ta- uh, took a decision. You walk through the whole implementation process, but now you need the rest of the teams to start using that platform, right? You already spent the money. Now you want them to, uh, uh, make them use their platform. Do you have any kind of recommendation on how you can raise the, uh, um, the, this adoption when starting to use new processes or software? Yeah, certainly. So this is, this is a tricky point when it comes to introducing legal tech because, yeah, like you said, you've already spent the money. You are pretty sure... I mean, you have expectations regarding this process. You want the, you want that value to be delivered. Just, you, you don't want those, the tool just to be there for you to, uh, to brag about it, uh, on social media. I mean, some, some firms, some companies do it just, just for the, just for the press, but I'm not talking about this sort of use of, of legal tech.

30:35If we want to be, if you want to use it and to, if you want to bring value, we need to have support, um, from various part of the organization. I feel like that's quite important. We need to have support from our leadership, so, so whoever it is, is our partner, senior partner, CEO. We need to know that they support, uh, us taking time into, i- i- i- in, uh, in legal tech, in, in this process of testing the solution or implementing the solution, using the solution. They need to, uh, yeah, they need to be a, an ambassador of that change, and it, it cannot be just, uh, something that is introduced somewhere in the firm, somewhere in the company, and, and, and sort of there is, there's no leadership appraisal of that or supp- or, or supportive words, uh, regarding the process. So that's, that's number one for sure. Uh, another part is support, uh- Support from the team that is introducing this, this, uh, this, this change, this, this process. So, uh, yeah, it depends.

31:44It depends on the struct- on structural org- o- organizational structure of our, of our firm or company. So it's an innovation team, legal ops team, uh, knowledge management team. Um, yeah, it depends, but we need to, we need to know that this is part, that we are into, that we are part of something that has a broader strategy. It's not just something that we, we are testing or doing a, a one-off exercise of just, you know, using an, using an automation on one document, and that's it, and then we sort of back to, uh, back to business as usual. We need to understand that this is part of some- that this is part of a, of a bigger change, and that understanding can be de- delivered by, um, by the innovation manager, by the, by the leader of that, of that, of that group that understands our pain points. Um, so they need to be there to support us. They need, they, you need to have some, you need to, uh, have access to a p- person that is going to help you with, with, with, with your questions.

32:46So that's definitely, uh, important because if you, if you feel like you are sort of lost and there is no one to, to help you along the way, that's not ideal, ideal, and you want that support at all times. And, um, the third element, the, it is someone from with- within your sort of, your sort of group. So, uh, so I would, I would say it's, uh, yeah, innovation partner, innovation ambassador, evangelist, however you want to call, call them. Uh, it's quite important to have someone that is, yeah, your peer to be sort of, to be standing for the change and to be sort of a, a living proof that this can, this process can work. And y- y- you have to find those people because if, if everyone, i- if, if the group that is sort of in, that is sort of, uh, that is, that needs to do the change, they don't feel like there's, there's someone amongst them that, that, that's supporting it, they are, yeah, they're not likely to, to...

33:59This process is not likely to succeed because you have to have, yeah, like I said, the support from, from different parts, and they need to know that someone, uh, from their group, from that group, uh, let's say associates, you have an associate that is, that is basically a, a spokesperson for this, for this change, and they can really, uh, spread a good word, if you like, uh, regarding, regarding the innovation. So, uh, yeah, those, those were sort of the, the supportive parts of this. Uh, but yeah, um, another element of, of adoption of legal tech is to have a clear structure of it. And so before I said that if, if I'm recruiting a person, I'm looking for the PM experience, a product management, management experience. It is important exactly in this part. So when you adopt a solution, you need to have clear deliverables for different parts of that process.

34:56So you need to have some d- some, some low-hanging fruits delivered quite early in the process to s- to, to, to really keep that passion, enthusiasm going. Because if people are, if people are working on something and in a, in a month time they can see, oh, we've automated, you know, five documents and we're already working o- on those documents with our clients, it's an amazing, it's an amazing, uh, testament that this process works, and we are doing something that actually changes the way we do things. Uh, versus if we work on a process and nothing is changing for months and months, you know, it's, it's really difficult to, to be enthusiastic and be, yeah, be, be in favor of that change if you see that nothing is changing. So y- you definitely need success stories very early in the process to, to, yeah, to, to, to, to basically make people more positive about the change.

35:55Uh, not everyone's gonna be, of, of course, not, you're gonna have, uh, people that are not gonna be on this boat ever, but, and that's, that, you have to accept it. But having those success stories very, very early in the, in the process really helps you, uh, keeping that momentum going and, and i- and sort of, um, making more people like the change, making more people understand the change and, and the value that it brings. So yeah, I would say those are sort of a couple of tidbits regarding the adoption, but obviously it, it depends on, on w- on, on how you, how you want to, uh, do it, um, and sort of what, what target group you're working with. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, you, you kind of hit the nail on the head there.

36:44You know, especially when you start working with an organization, you need to make sure that they can understand, um, or, or they understand how to train your team on, on how to use a solution. And then from there, you know, like you said, having those, um, internal folks, those, those, you know, we call power users, that are, um, truly understanding the, the new tool that's being implemented and can also give advice to other folks, um, that are gonna be maybe using the tool not as often, uh, to make sure that they're not getting frustrated, that they're happy with it, and, and that they are going to continue moving forward with that instead of reverting back to what they used to know, which was probably a, a clunkier process. But, but again, it's, it's something that they're familiar with, they're comfortable with. Um, a- and as long as you have, you know, your, your, um, your internal team, uh, driving that change forward as well as support coming from the vendor, whoever that might be for the, the software solution that you've chosen, uh, you know, that usually sets your, your team up for, uh, success and, and high user adoption. Um, so Matt, this has been a wonderful w- conversation. You know, we really enjoyed having you on. Um, if, if folks wanted to learn more about you or connect with you, where's the, the best place to do that?

37:57Yeah, first of all, it's been a great pleasure from my side. Um, like I said, that was, yeah, really, really interesting to, to discuss those topics, and I feel like we should, we should educate the industry, and we should make sure that innovation is there to deliver value and not just deliver change. So that's a few five, five cents to, to what we, what we, what we, what you said and just to summarize it all. Uh, yeah, how to find me, I guess I'm not gonna be o- original in saying, uh, LinkedIn is the way to go or LinkedIn, um, is, is the platform that you can find me. So Matt Jakubowski on LinkedIn. I'm, I'm happy to sort of engage, uh, and, and discuss, um, anything that you want to regarding, um, the digital transformation, um, or anything surrounding that, that, those sort of, that sort of area. And yeah. All right. Well, thanks everybody for listening to another episode of Contract Heroes. Uh, if this isn't your first episode and you, you found some value here, we'd really appreciate you leaving a review.

38:58You can do that as well on Spotify now. Uh, but we thank everybody for listening and look forward to having you back here in a couple of weeks again.