AI & Contract Management - Jim Chiang

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Uh, today we've got a great conversation for you. Jim Cheng, the founder of My Legal Einstein, is joining us. Jim has been in the AI and contract management space for quite some time. Uh, before I flip things over to Pepe to give you a little bit more about what we're gonna be chatting about today, wanted to flip things over to Jim so he can give you, uh, a quick background on his history. Uh, Jim, thanks for joining us, and, uh, we're real excited for this, this chat. Yeah, pleasure to talk to you today. So, uh, let me just give you a sense of what my background is, um, in the CLM space. First of all, I'm from the AI side of things, right? So the way I think about this market, the way I think about contracts is really in terms of how AI really helps the space. So my background's actually quite technical.

0:59Uh, before this, before starting My Legal Einstein, I actually headed up the AI engineering for Icertis, as well as Apttus, which is a kind of big players in the CLM space. So I know a lot about it, um, but I think that a lot of our discussion as well as our kind of investigation moving forward is really how AI transforms how people work in terms of, in terms of contract space. So I'm looking forward to talking to you further. Awesome. So I think there's a lot of things that we want to discuss with you, Jim, uh, taking advantage of all of your experience because, uh, with, with, with some of, of, of our previous guests, we've been talking about AI and, I mean, how help- how helpful it is, but it's still, like, a lot of time-consuming, right? Especially if you want to implement it inside a, a, inside an organization. But, uh, we think how, uh, your software works, and I, and I, and I really wanna go, uh, in there, and there's no implementation time there. I mean, this, this is something that you can start working on it. And I think- Mm-hmm...

1:59that besides talking about CLM and automation process, I think, uh, your solution will be, like, a very good complement on how we can interact with contracts inside your organization. So before we jump in and start talking about the details on, uh, how My Legal Einstein works, can you, uh, give us a brief, uh, on why AI is such a big boss in the legal tech space, especially on the contract management? Well, I could, I could tell you, like, I think part of the reason we started My Legal Einstein is because I've seen all of the failures in the CLM space, right? Uh, in terms of long implementation cycles, um, not getting the traction that you want from an organization, uh, getting lost in implementation time, right? Not being able to scale up to address the needs of an entire enterprise. These are very, very common problems.

2:53If you actually hear how people have ex- been experiencing CLM systems, these are kind of the most common issues that people address. Now, on the other side of things, AI. AI is one of those things that have been hyped throughout the entire, at least the past 10 years ti- time space. And it goes back even back before then, when you actually see all these sci-fi movies about machines actually being able to act human and being able to help you in a lot of different ways. What's different now, however, is basically in the past 10 years, the AI research, the AI, uh, the transformative research that's actually, uh, been, been, been able to demonstrate, AI is incredibly much more functional than it was even 10 years ago, and definitely far better than five years ago, right? The reason why My Legal Einstein makes sense is because we are kind of pushing the envelope of what's possible in terms of applying AI to addressing contracts.

3:50Now, that's very different than basically saying, thinking a very common, uh, uh, um, a common misconception about how AI applies in the contract space is somehow the AI's going to be like an attorney that acts on your behalf, right? Kind of like a intelligent agent, um, almost like a paralegal that actually kind of gives you predictions and tells you what to do. We don't think about it in those terms. We talk about AI in terms of augmenting how attorneys and people who review contracts can actually do their work more efficiently with much higher levels of compliance, and that's how we kind of, kind of phrase, phrase AI. Right. I think, like, a lot of people when they think about AI applied into any kind of industry, they think about IBM Watson, right? Like some kind of robot- Mm-hmm... that you can just ask a question, "Hey, can you draft me a contract," or, "What's your opinion on this case?" Or, or, or, I don't know.

4:44I mean, there's a misconception on what AI really is and how we can use it in our day-to-day work, right? So Jim, what, what role does AI play when it comes to, uh, contract management tools? Well, there's a whole range of areas, right? For example, AI is actually very good at things like being able to dive deep into a contract, right? Let's say you actually have a 200-page contract, sometimes 300-page contracts, and that's actually very common in just common law jurisdictions, right? So you see very, very long contracts. And just imagine you compare that with kind of our current attention span deficit issues, right? Where you basically can only concentrate on two or three sentences at the same time. How can we actually expect to be able to negotiate these very long, complex documents if we aren't able to focus on those types of areas?

5:38And this is actually an area where AI is perfectly suited because it's really actually augmenting the attorney or the contract reviewer's, uh, abilities to be able to understand the entire context of the contract, to be able to negotiate that effectively. As well as things like, for example, comparing one contract clause and one contract term to a knowledge base that's actually in your playbooks, that's in other contracts you have negotiated, and you really want to actually have that information available very, very commonly. And then the third area which we have very much explored on is basically the idea that when you're talking about contracts and what you're talking about collaboration across a global world, okay, with multiple jurisdictions, multiple court jurisdictions, as well as language, okay? What we've been able to demonstrate is that we can actually deliver AI that understands contracts in many different languages, including the major European languages, as well as the Asian languages.

6:34How often is the case that a company is basically hindered by the fact that the paper that is sent to them is basically written in a French language, right? And you need to go find a French attorney to be... And that actually always slows down the pace of business, as well as pace of con- uh, of contract execution as well. So these are kind of fundamental problems that from an AI standpoint, we kind of introduced our Miley Weinstein solution to actually address. Yeah, and Jim, I think, you know, the, the second point you made there around the, the faster reviews. So, you know, it's interesting because, uh, I think we've seen a trend that, that in-house teams are starting to get bigger. Uh, companies are starting to invest in their internal resources, and- Mm-hmm... and they don't, they don't wanna use outside counsel as much. So, you know, obviously with outside counsel, usually it's billed on an hourly rate. But when you have somebody that's on your in-house team, you really wanna make sure that they're working on, um, things that are their highest value.

7:27A- and, and contract review, if you could speed that up, I think that brings a ton of value in, to these organizations so that, one, they don't have to rely on outside counsel. They're not charging, getting charged a, a exorbitant amount of money to review these contracts. Mm-hmm. And they're allowing their internal team to, to make sure that they're focused on probably things that are a little bit higher priority. Yeah, I completely agree. And one, one of the biggest areas of adding value through AI is basically just helping double check the human's work, right? I mean, how often can we actually say that, you know, attorneys can sometimes forget certain language that they should have included in the contract, might have added some things that actually contradict other areas of the contract. This is actually a very, very common problem. And what we've seen is that even when someone has not, has no experience with AI, okay, has no background in AI, they can actually use an application, and that application can at least help them guide their own review process of their contract to figure out what they need to change, right? And those are basically areas where we're talking not about AI being an intelligent agent to remind someone. Nobody really likes to be nagged about what they need, need to do.

8:31But instead, really about augmenting the human's intelligence or the ability for them to do work that they've never been able to do before. Yeah. And, and you know, we're gonna get into this as we continue the conversation here. I don't wanna jump around too much, but- Mm-hmm... I, I think that that's definitely something that, um, if you are out there and you're searching for a CLM tool, a contract management tool, a- anything legal tech and, and, you know, you're being drawn to, to all this buzz in AI, you, you really need to, to, one, to understand what type of value is it going to bring to your organization, and what, what's important to you before you go out there and you start to talk to, uh, all these vendors and publishers. Because a, a lot of these organizations are defining AI in different ways, and they do different things. Um, so it really depends on, on what you're looking for. W- what do you want out of a solution and, and what's important before you, um, go out there and talk to folks because I think it can really muddy the waters. Yeah.

9:28I, I, I think it actually adds a lot of frustration to the space as well. I mean, I, I think because AI is so hyped that practically every company says that they do some element of AI. But if you kind of scratch under the covers, you probably realize that 95% of them are just doing some very simple rules-based processing or some type of very simple calculations, or even just like simple rejects where you're actually just comparing text between two documents. That's not AI. That's not even close to AI. That, that's technology that's been around for many, many years. What we're talking about is really the ability for these very, very complex algorithms to be able to understand contracts, understand legal words in the contract setting so that they can actually help guide the attorneys of what they should actually look and review at, right? Because it's a very challenging problem when you're talking about long, long contracts. Right. It makes a lot of sense, especially, you know, during these days, right?

10:22I mean, um, every legal team inside our organization, they're like not as big as a company can... I mean, they don't grow as fast as any other department inside a company, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, we can see that the sales or the procurement team can grow 300 times, uh, from one year to, to, to the next one, while the legal team just grows for one or two more lawyers, right? So they try to do a lot of things with less. And one of the things that goes inside the contract management process, I mean, besides the contract request and all these very standard processes, right, something that goes in the middle, which is the contract ne- negotiation and the, and the analysis- Mm-hmm... of your contract, especially when you're using third party papers, right? Because, um, you were talking about documents with 200 or 300 pages. I mean, that's okay if the contracts are well organized or, uh- Mm-hmm... classified, right? But in, I would say more than half of, of the times, you can see some terms such as termination that are not always inside the termination clause, but they're spread along the whole document. Mm-hmm.

11:34And having an AI to identify all those terms, I mean, this is something that, I mean, it can take hours or even days just to analyze a document that big, right? But when, when, when you can use, um, uh, AI to help you to analyze those documents and try to identify those red flags or, uh, risky clauses that you need to address, either if you're a, a, a law firm for a, for a customer- Mm-hmm... or if you're inside, uh, council working inside a company, this kind of tools is going to help you to, um, uh, to save a lot of time there, right? Yeah, I c- I completely agree with you. Now, now keep in mind, like, we're, we're constantly bombarded by interruptions all day long, right? So the way that people review contracts, they literally just start reading it from the very beginning, and they get interrupted by meetings, they get interrupted by, uh, other things that they actually have to do in their e- email box.

12:33That's just human. That, those are things that are constantly happening, and you can't really expect someone to actually dedicate four hours of uninterrupted, uh, attention to be able to read a 200-page contract, okay? And be able to understand everything. It's just not possible. So we, what we think about is basically saying, "Okay, let's try to, uh, help the attorney to be able to navigate to areas of the contract they need to look, look, look at." Let's say they actually just wanted to kind of do a deep dive on in- corporate indemnification. Okay, we can actually do that just by just simple navigation. A lot of times, these are things that are just fundamental to how they choose to actually navigate these long contracts. They wanna be able to do it, and once they actually start using an application like ours, it's, it's absolutely, we gear it to be as intuitive as possible. Someone who's never heard of Legal Insight should actually get up to speed quickly.

13:26So one, one of the biggest frustrations, and I have been in this part of this industry for, for a while now, is that I don't know why people are patient enough to think that they have a problem today, and they could actually have a vendor come in, and after maybe a year, a year and a half, they can expect a result, right? That requires a lot of patience, and I can understand that that's kind of a lot of the most common technology, uh, deployment cycles. But we don't want that. Nobody wants that. The customer doesn't want that either, right? They want to be able to demonstrate value quickly, and they wanna understand and be able to demonstrate to an end user who's actually reviewing contracts, for example, a, a clear time to value in practically immediately, right? So we are partnered with companies like Raving Court, which is actually trying to be the App Store of legal tech, and it simplifies a lot of the deployment cycles simply because, as opposed to waiting a year, we're talking about as simple as push a button and it automatically deploys an entire infrastructure that's able to support thousands of users at the push of a button.

14:38This is actually how technology should be deployed, right? As soon as what somebody experiences that, they're like, "Of course, this makes sense," right? Nobody really wants to wait a year to, to be able to implement and get value. So these are kind of things that we think about as basically transformative, disruptive approaches at actually addressing legal tech. Yeah, and, and I think, you know, we've seen that obviously over the, the past 10 years, I mean, in my sales career. Um- Mm-hmm... the, the arsenal, the, the treasure chest that salespeople go to to be able to pull a piece of software out that's actually going to help them in their day to day. In a lot of these applications, you know, there isn't... There is obviously different time to value when you consider each of these different applications, each different type of application. But- Mm-hmm... I think that's why we always stress when you're, I mean, if you're implementing any type of, of legal tech, or even technology for that matter, that, that you do take a phased approach, right?

15:32Don't try to do everything at once. You wanna make sure that you can keep your people excited, those end users that are going to be using these types of applications. Make sure that they are able to see progress, they're able to start using the tool, you know, at least within the first couple of months so that they, they get excited about what they're doing. You can get keep user adoption high, a- and they actually see that there is value to changing, um, especially in, in, uh, the legal space. I mean, you know, lawyers are, are... I think this is a space that we're just now seeing technology really start to play a role. Um, so getting them out of their, the ways that they've been using for, for years now, um- Mm-hmm... it, it can be tough, and, and you need to be able to show that there is value to, to changing, that they're gonna get their time back, they're gonna get, uh, more value out of their day, they're gonna get things done faster, they can delegate easier. So I think these are all things that need to be taken into account, like you said, when, one, you're out there looking for technology to help, um, but two, also making sure that the time to value is something that, um, at the very least, there's a roadmap for, but the sooner the better.

16:32The sooner the better. I mean, we're, we're, we're in an instant gratification age, right? People, people think about the, in things in those terms. So always the sooner the better. Right. And I'm curious, Jim, you, um, when we were talking about the role of AI in the contract management process- Mm-hmm... you said that it can help whenever you have, uh, a playbook, right, with your clauses. But this is something that we've seen with, with some other customers, right? That n- not many have a playbook, right? And sometimes they just have, like, a misconception on how a playbook can help a company, uh, on different kind of situations, right? So how, how have you seen or any... Or can, can you give us a couple of recommendations on what a company should look for when they're starting to draft a playbook, and how that playbook interacts with an AI platform such as yours? Yeah, sure, sure. So first of all, in terms of this terminology, right? I've heard the concept of playbooks multiple times.

17:36But when you actually talk about playbooks, it's almost like a, a, a term that the tech vendors have actually invented, but end users may not be fully understanding what that term means. What we talk about in terms of playbooks is really just your, your knowledge base, right? All of the information that's insti- institutionalized within the organization, we actually wanna be able to have that readily available for the next contract you're, you're reviewing. And the reason why is because, first of all, the playbooks may, if you actually kind of structure it correctly, you typically have a very clear set of things that every attorney should actually look for when they're looking at, for example, termination clauses and indemnification. And it could be specific to the type of contract you're talking about or it could be specific to the jurisdictions you're actually talking about. So part of the approach that we actually make within playbooks is first, that they should actually be readily available and also very, um, very flexible in terms of structure, right?

18:31A playbook can actually contain just set of rules or contain different types of clause libraries, depending what you, what you're looking for. For the end user, what's kind of geared towards is basically the playbook should contain the most critical information that an attorney needs to see side by side with the thing that they're actually looking at, right? So they can make a clear distinction, "Okay, this is what the playbook says, this is what I'm looking at." And so they can make that direct correlation about what, what they should actually change, what they should actually red line and such. Um, the other area is basically you actually wanna structure playbooks so that it addresses different types of requirements. So for example, you can actually have a playbook about data security. You can actually have a playbook specific on a geography, like for example, if your jurisdiction, they do business in a specific geography like China or such, or sp- specific types of goods you're actually talking about. And this is actually specific to that type of contracting to do it.

19:26The other aspect that's really critical of playbooks, and we see this all the time, okay, is that you implement a playbook and you actually, if they're in the CLM space, you kind of include things like contract templates. And how incredibly frustrating it is that once you implement something, you spend maybe a year putting together the templates together, right? You merge all the templates, you merge together the playbooks, and then as soon as you roll it out, there's a major legislation change, okay? You need to go change a whole bunch of things. And then you realize it may take, depending on how it's implemented, it may take another two months to actually roll up an up- up- an update to the playbooks and, and templates. And I'm like, "Why?" That makes very little sense, right? It should be a process that legal is constantly able to iterate on, right? In terms of what exactly is the p- appropriate, uh, best practices for organizations, as well as what exactly is the, should be the most up-to-date contract templates.

20:22And these are things you actually should be able to make changes if you're a legal staff and you own that specific document, that you should actually be able to make a, in a change in small five minutes or so, or 10 minutes, right? It should be, and that should actually instantly be shared across the organization. And that's what we're actually talking about. It's really allowing business to be much more agile, um, in terms of basically establishing the best practices, but at the same time, be reactive enough to be able to change at the right times to figure out what, what other, uh, terms would make, make the most sense for an organization, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I think, I mean, it's important, right? It's important when you're out there choosing a vendor that, that you do have that flexibility. You know, one, obviously, I mean, there needs to be some type of training involved. And, uh, well, I guess at the very least, you need to make sure that the application that you're moving forward with has the, the ease of use to allow you, you know, as the end user or, or as a, you know, what we like to call power user of a system, uh, to make those changes on the fly, right? Y- you don't wanna have to be running back to a vendor or, or a partner or something every single time you wanna edit a template or edit a clause, uh, or edit a workflow.

21:29You know, that's, that's not something that, at this day and age, really should be happening anymore. Um, but, and, and also, right, I mean, that plays a big part in, in user adoption. Um, and, and you know, Jim, another, um, big, I think, play in, in the AI space right now or, or buzz in the, in, in contract management is the, the ingestion of, of legacy documents. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and a lot of organizations out there are, um, telling their, their prospects or their future customers that, "Hey, yeah, we can get this done with AI. It's a super straightforward process. We can adjust everything. You all need to do is send us the contracts and w- we'll get them up and running." Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and, and we've been in this space long enough to know that that's really, really not the case. Yes. Um, there, there is still a lot of heavy lifting that probably goes on behind the scenes. Uh, you know, we like to be a little bit- Mm-hmm...

22:24more up- upfront with our customers and tell them, "No, that's, that's not really how that works." It might be what you're paying for, um, but, but that's not the case. I mean, how did, how did, how do you think we got to this, this place where, um, organizations are, are, I mean, for lack of a better term, lying to, to their customers- ... um, a- and saying that this is all done with AI when it, it's really not? You know, that's a great question. I'm kind of glad that you used that word as well. Now, keep in mind, actually, I, I'm based out of Silicon, Silicon Valley, right? One of the greatest things about Silicon Valley is that everybody can actually start companies because they believe in certain ideas, and they can be able to flush out these types of things. But on the flip side, we're actually also guilty of kind of these companies like Theranos, which actually, uh, is famous for misrepresenting all their, uh, or their, the blood technology, blood diagnostic technology, as well as a whole lot of, like, pipe dreams that are realistic or completely unrealistic. And that's a problem, and I think that's kind of a cultural problem.

23:24And I could totally understand why, and we get to this point where attorneys, when they think about technology, uh, and they're consu- con- they're thinking about consuming technology, they're very skeptical. And we see it all the time in the sales cycle. It's kind of like, you know, every salesperson will tell them anything they w- they can to try to get the deal closed, okay? And they're very, very educated buyers, so they don't, don't, they don't believe that. So in terms of kind of how we approach the market, we don't believe in any slides, okay? We don't believe in any of that because it kind of suggests that we're going to be able to do something in the future, which we don't, can't really guarantee, especially the AI side, right? AI algorithms, um, unless it's there, unless it's actually able to be performant in a whole range of applications, and we need to do extensive testing in- internally to be able to, to certify that, we're not going to tell anybody about how, that capability, right?

24:23And that whole con- conversation you had about like, you know, like Marc was talking about, you just- Put a whole bunch of contracts in, and then you sprinkle some magic AI dust on top of it, and it'll reconcile all of your problems, is so mythical, okay? That I'm not actually surprised that anyone even would believe something like that, right? Um, and it's clear. It's, it's not only har- heavy lifting, it's basically usually outsourced labor that actually allows you to kind of go sort through all those types of things, and it's not AI, right? And that's kind of the, the reality of it. So I think there's a... As a tech company in the space, one of the things we struggle with all the time is just to understand that our buyers have been burned so many times. Okay? So there's a number of different approaches that we actually address this way. Fir- first of all, anybody could actually just go try out My Legal Einstein today.

25:17Um, sign up for a trial or subscription, um, et cetera. Get working with the product. Try our algorithms out, and that's completely free for 30 days, right? You can actually try it out at any time. And that allows them to basically say, "Okay, that means they actually have real technology here," okay? Which is kind of the first step, right? That's the first step in terms of basically demonstrating the technology is real. The second thing, and I'm sure that you guys, you, you guys have talked about this all the time in terms of the cultural aspects of, um, in-house legal basically adopting technology. And it's cultural aspect about how, um, attorneys who are naturally risk adverse because that's kind of the nature of their roles, um, it's always safer to do nothing, right? And that, and that's kind of the, the mindset. And what we've been able to do is bridge the gap substantially, and here's a couple ways that we do that. First of all, our user training is conducted by attorneys. Okay? So one of the biggest friction points is that when you have technical trainers who know the product well explain it to attorneys, and try to explain to attorneys how to use the technology, that is completely lost.

26:29Instead, we actually, every single one of our training staff are actually licensed attorneys that actually explain how the technology has worked, helped with them address some of their contract review issues. Right? A completely different approach, and it's actually much more, um, much more amenable to kind of the, um, into the audience we're actually talking about. That's the, that's the one thing. The second thing is that whenever you try to schedule training, things like user training, one of the things you realize is that it's almost impossible to get three or four attorneys in the same room because they do not have time, especially in-house legal. Like, their, their current ways of actually, um, addressing their workload is to work harder. Okay? So that is actually what we're, what we're talking about. To try to get scheduled for training is practically a non-starter. So instead of that, on our website you can actually just go click on the learning center. There's these three to five-minute videos that tells you everything that how our product works. And many attorneys basically say, "Well, shoot. How do I do this? I don't remember."

27:31They get on the website, click on it, look at the three to five-minute video, and they go, "Oh, I got it. I got it." Right? And that allows them to get up to speed with the product. Right? Nothing's worse than actually having paying for a product that nobody could get it, no one can use, and no one can actually schedule trainings to actually learn how to use, right? That's the worst, and you see this all the time. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. A- and, uh, I, I think it's important that, again, the organizations that you work with, like you said, Jim, are, are... You, you have a knowledge base that you can go to. You can do some self-paced training. You can watch a couple of videos, right? I mean, obviously that'll only, for some of the more complex products, only gets you so far, but, but at least that's there and, and allows you to, to leverage that, um, if, you know, like you said, you're, you're absolutely slammed. Uh, and hopefully when they are doing the live training sessions, those are being recorded and you're able to ask questions to, to the organizations that you're working with because, I, I mean, that, that stuff is all extremely, extremely key in, in, you know, what we've been talking about this whole time, which is at the end of the day, user adoption. Mm-hmm. Um, so Jim, final, final question.

28:36Um, and, and I know that we touched on this a little bit, but I mean, what do you think the future holds for, for AI in the legal tech and the legal op space? I, I think that... Well, I just, just speaking from, uh, my recent experience at Clock, right? Um, and talking to a lot of legal ops folks, talking to a lot of vendors, I think that now that we're kind of in a kind of post-COVID traction period, I think there's going to be reevaluation of cer- certain things about what, what certain types of technology is kind of geared towards addressing, right? Um, and that's kind of the challenges, right? Because we know that there's a lot of interest in terms of this contract management space. But at the same time, I think companies like Clock has actually been great in terms of basically helping buyers understand what technology is actually there and what problems we're actually trying to solve and make, like, to kind of avoid that, uh, product future, uh, current requirements mismatch that we see on an ongoing basis, right? Um, so those are kind of things that's absolutely fundamental in terms of kind of moving forward.

29:39I think there's going to be a reexamination of kind of the existing, existing flows, uh, existing technologies, and existing business problems we're actually going to have to address. The other area is that I am very bullish about AI, right? I mean, as you can understand, and that's, uh, probably the best part of why, um, I, uh, uh, you know, helped found, found My Legal Einstein. Because when you talk about technology, right? Technology, first of all, in, in the legal field, it's, there's not a huge amount of technology adoption at, at this point. And I could say that from my experience with artificial intelligence, it is a game changer in a whole range of areas, right? Because, um, you can do far more. You could do things like, okay, for example, you can negotiate a contract in a language that you don't understand. Okay? How cool is that? Right? That is a cool concept.

30:34And to be able to do that intelligent, that's a very, very powerful concept. That's something that actually gets people excited about, about things on the AI side. So you can see the obvious, uh, business applications for that. So you can see much more, um, much more adoption of artificial intelligence. But at the same time, you can also hope that buyers can understand what the difference between AI vaporware, um, and what really is p- possible AI. One of the things we do on an ongoing basis, we do not hype AI. We just basically kind of demonstrate its capabilities, because one of the things we don't know is how, how quickly the AI advancements will happen, right? So that whole kind of concept of magic dust on historical contract effects, that's a problem that everybody tries to kind of be able to address, but the technology's not ready , right? It's just not ready to address that. So no matter how many people could say, "Yeah, we have this magic dust," it's just not realistic, right?

31:33So you could see a lot of the shaking out of the industry associated with, with those types of things. Yeah. But without a doubt, I mean, AI is really the future of contract, contract management. It's really just trying to figure out how. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and, and I think, you know, like you said, I, I think that there will be a shakedown in the industry. I think that people are, buyers are getting smarter, um, right? But, but thank you for the plug, working with companies like us to actually decipher who, who's real out there and, and, and who's not, and what functionality is, is going to be important to these organizations- Mm-hmm... moving forward. But, um, you know, I, I think it's exciting and, and there is so many, so many companies out there in this legal tech space now. It's just exploded over the past couple of years, and, um, I, I think that's great for growth and innovation. So it's exciting to see where we're going. Um, a- and Jim, I, I think that My Legal Einstein is, is, you know, bringing a, a ton of value for, for, uh, a lot of organizations out there.

32:27So and, and if folks wanna learn more about My Legal Einstein or, or connect with you, um, where's the best place to do that? Uh, just check out our website. Um, one of the things that's the be- the easiest way is that we make it as easy as possible to go register, try out our products, right, try out our algorithms and such. And one of the things we also don't, don't believe is we don't really kind of pester you with a whole bunch of emails after you do that too. So, um, we know that people's time is very, very valuable, so just evaluate technology, and if it makes sense, just kind of subscribe or basically pay for an enterprise license and things like that, so. Awesome, awesome. And that website, everybody, is mylegaleinstein.com. Uh, Jim, we, we really wanna thank you for joining us. This has been a, uh, a great conversation. Hopefully we don't ruffle too many feathers out there with, uh, with some of our, um, I guess you can call them opinions. Um, but , but thanks for joining us, and, uh, we'll see everybody back here for the next episode of Contract Heroes. Fantastic. Thank you, Marc. Thank you, PP.