Building a Business Case Business for Contract Management

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00Welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, the show where our guests, and sometimes us, provide best practice recommendations on all things related to contract management. Hi there, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where our guests are the heroes, not us. Uh, on today's show, we have with us Lisa Lang. Uh, I'm gonna s- just, uh, flip things over to her real quick so she can give you, uh, kind of a high-level overview of who she is, what organization she works for, and then I'll turn things over to Pepe to give us an understanding of what we're gonna be talking about today. So Lisa, go ahead and, and take it away. Okay, thanks. Uh, and thank you for having me.

0:51Uh, my name is Lisa Lang, and I'm the general counsel at a, uh, public regional university in Kentucky, and I have been here for three years. It's a relatively small university with just about, um, 2,000 students, and so, um, the role of the Office of General Counsel is to do just about, um, anything, uh, because our office is so small and we provide, um, the support for all staff. Right, which makes a lot of sense exactly for what are we going to talk about and how technology can help you to reduce the staff members and how to, uh, help the ac- the, the, the current staff me- members to work more efficiently, right? Absolutely. Okay, Lisa, so before, uh, going deep into the technical parts and the process, I would like to ask you how, uh, was the operation inside, uh, the, the university before implementing technology?

1:56And, and I'm, I'm in this, like, prior the COVID era. Yeah. So, you know, because we are a small university, um, our Office of General Counsel is very small. In larger, um, universities, oftentimes they have a section that's devoted to contracts and procurement, and that is not the case for our office. Um, essentially, in my office, it's me and a deputy general counsel, and my deputy general counsel, as of right now, is in a contract procurement training right now because we did an evaluation and, um, we had divided up tasks. And, um, I do contracts and procurement. She does not. And so, um, what we are trying to do is cross-train so that she has the ability to do it as well. But because I am principally responsible for all, uh, purchasing, procurement, and contracts, that means that I'm the one who works directly with our, um, purchasing and procurement folks.

3:00Um, I talk with them and I help them starting with the bid process to the, um, the contract process, and, um, I review all contracts for the university. So it's a lot of work that is in my hands. And, um, in terms of that process, we, uh, were, prior to COVID, 100% manual. And so when I say manual, uh, I think a lot of people don't understand how manual- ... we were. So manual means that when you're going through a contract negotiation process and then you get to the point where you're going to execute your contracts, I have to print out the contract. I have to stamp it with a stamp that says it's been, um, reviewed, um, as to form by legal. I sign it, I date it, then I scan it, and then I send it on to the person who is supposed to sign the document. And what happened when COVID happened is, as, you know, everybody knows, the world suddenly changed. A lot of work was happening remotely.

4:10And so it becomes really, really difficult when you have a manual process based on paper and you have to do things that require a copier, a scanner, a, uh... And I showed you all before we started this my, uh, my manual stamp that, um, as Pepe observed, it's only, uh, good until, um, when you spin the dial to get the- ... runs out. You gotta throw it out. So prior to COVID, completely manual, all paper, and I was the one, only one dealing, um, purchasing, procurement, and contracts. And how were the first... I mean, this is, this is a really question from, from myself. I like personal one. How was the first couple of weeks when everything was closed? What, what were you doing? Because you weren't able to contact people personally, right? And they weren't able- Right... to sign it with a, with a pen. Like, what, what, what was, like, the most important challenges there?

5:14So, you know, at least as far as the contracting goes, um, I will admit that I took pictures with my phone of a signature- Okay... page, you know? And I, uh, you know, and I, I took my stamp home with me, and I stamped the signature page, um, and then, um, you know, took the picture on my phone and then, um, uploaded it on my phone. Wow. Wow. That, yeah, I mean, that, and, and so- I mean, what else are you gonna do? Yeah, no. It, and, uh, so I mean, w- were, w- were you kind of interested in i- in starting that search for, for some technology to help with this process before COVID? And then once COVID hit, was that kind of the, the tipping point that was like, "Okay, we, we really need to get something in place for this now"? Oh, 100%. So I've been here about three and a half years, and when I first got here, um, we had a, a stack of contracts. And they did, um, or try and organize them in alphabetical order and put them in binders.

6:15But when you have somebody who says to you, um, "I need you to pull contract X," it, there's nothing worse than having to go to these binders and flip through them to try and find that contract. Um, and so I mean, you know, for, for a paper system, you know, I guess it was, it was, it was okay. It was, it was working. Um, it, it took a little bit of time. Um, but, but that, that was an area that I had continued to highlight because I was aware that there were other places that had electronic systems that worked much more efficiently. So it was a constant conversation prior to COVID-19. And it wasn't that people did not recognize the fact that we could do it better. It's, it's like anything else. You have priorities. And if something seems to be working, it doesn't matter, you know, what a big pain in the butt it might have been for me.

7:12As long as I was making it work, it was gonna continue to be done the way we were doing it, as long as we could continue to respond to the requests as we got them, and we were responding to the requests. Okay. Got it. Right. So I mean, it was, it was pretty organized for being, uh, in a paper process, right? But still, like, it's a lot of time and, and, and especially when you're thinking about a legal team or procurement or, or, or anything, you gotta think about it as the main resource that you have is the time. And if you're wasting that time in activities that can be just solved with one click, that will make a lot of sense, right? Because you only have couple of hours a day, and maybe just even less the ones that you actually can work, like, like the focused work. But when you find these kind of sit- situations where you still have to do some manual work that doesn't, uh, bring any added value, that's, that, that's a cost, right? Oh, absolutely, 100%.

8:16And, and you know, and the other thing, too, is, and I can give you an example, um, you know, there's, there's issues, too, in terms of, um, the, the accuracy, um, of the information that you're providing. So I'll give an example. Um, and, and this was one of the things that I would highlight often, is that every year we have to go through an external audit. And when you do an external audit, one of the questions we always get is we need a copy of all of the executed leases. And we've got numerous different, um, department units within the university who may operate, who might execute a lease, um, to do offsite activities. And so it was just frustrating. Yes, people kept coming to me and said, "Well, all the leases throw, flow through you."

9:06And while that's true, they flow through for me for the purpose of reviewing them and then helping the execution, but I didn't necessarily have every single lease from every single department. Because oftentimes we would sign it, I would return it to the entity who was executing the lease. They would send it to, um, the person with whom they were doing the lease, and then they wouldn't return a copy to me. And in some cases, while I may have had, um, a lease with one signature, I didn't have it with the other signature, and I wasn't completely sure whether or not we actually executed that lease. And so that would require me to have to go chase down these leases, um, if I didn't have them in my file. So you know, that, you know, you want, you don't want, when your internal or your external auditor comes in, you don't wanna take forever. You need to be able to pull that stuff together, and you need to be able to have it at the tip of your fingertips, and you don't want to have them taking a look at your books and seeing lease payments, but then not finding the lease agreement in the documents that you provided to them.

10:12So yes, it is, it, it's, it's a, a lot about time, but it's also about accuracy. Yeah. And, and yeah, I think that, um, you know, Lisa, I would say that there's a lot of organizations out there that are, are currently in your shoes. You know, not everybody has a, a large amount of money to go spend on a piece of technology to help with this. Um, so I, I think that kind of leads us into to the next portion of the conversation here is, is how did you, how did you go about showing that, uh, you know, I mean, I think that everyone understood that there was a need, but, but taking that from a need to a more of a must-have. Um, w- what did that process kinda look like inside of, of the university, and, and what tips can you give others that might be in, you know, were in your shoes and, and are still out there searching for a, a cost-effective solution to, to help manage these issues? Yeah. So, you know, COVID-19 was really great, um, to help build that business case.

11:10And, um, you know, I could think of, um, every time somebody says something like, "We're getting ready to start a new budget cycle, and we would like everybody to have copies of all the contracts that they have to pay for the upcoming budget cycle so they know how much money they're going to have going out." And so, you know, when you have your CFO asks you, "Okay, um, I need, um, a, a spreadsheet, and on that spreadsheet, I need you to list every single contract we have in the university, and I need to know which unit is responsible for which contract." Um, okay, they're in binders. Um, uh, you know, and so, so you just say, "You know what? I would love to be able to do this. And if we had the ability to purchase a contract management system, um, we would upload these contracts in. The information would be pulled out using AI into a spreadsheet."

12:11And then I could run these reports for you at any point. Um, and so to answer your question, how is it you establish the business case, you go out, you research, you understand what contract management, um, systems can do for you, and then every time you're asked to do something and you explain, "I can do it, but this is, this is the limitations of what I can do or how much time it's gonna take." And then you say, "Of course, if I had this, then it would be a different story." And so, you know, every time I was like a broken record. "Okay, yeah. Um, but it's gonna take two weeks. Of course, if I had a contract management system in place, it would probably take me an hour, but, but that's okay. I'll, I'll get to it and, um, I'll update you in about a week or two and let you know how I'm doing on that project." Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, and, and, um, I, I think that, you know, it sounds like you're doing the same thing that we try to do with our prospects, right? Stay top of mind and- ...

13:12and keep, you know, telling people that, that you have something that, that, or, you know, in your case, you, there is something out there that can help with these issues that the team is running into. Um- Yeah... and, and so what about as far as, you know, getting buy-in? I mean, w- what parts of the organization, are there other teams that, that you knew could benefit from a system like this that you tried to, to bring into the conversation to, to maybe leverage, you know, both of your budgets on, on something like this? Absolutely. And, you know, and the thing is, I- it really was not a matter of trying to convince anybody. Um, it, it was working with my purchasing director and working with my CFO. I don't ever think that they did not understand the need and want to do it, but I also know that we've got competing priorities. And so we worked together, um, to establish the business case. And, um, I worked with the purchasing director, and I didn't have to pay for it. She paid for it. And, um, we did it, I think, with a grant or something.

14:15And so what we were doing is she and I had been viewing different kinds of contract management systems and getting, um, an idea of what was out there and what was available and, um, how much they would cost. And, you know, we started out looking at the Cadillac, and we decided we weren't going shopping for Cadillacs anymore because we would get really, really excited about it, and then they'd show us the sticker. And we'd be like, "Okay, that ain't happening, you know, anytime soon." Um, and then we, we looked at kind of a Yugo, and we go- and we were like, "You know what? I think, I think maybe we could find the money for that." So it was very, uh, it was a collaborative process. And, um, uh, the purchasing director, um, Jessica Burton, she was like, "Lisa, I think I have the money." And we had found a product that we felt like we could start with. And the nice thing about the product was that it was a product that's put out by a smaller company, and that company was growing.

15:18And so I think with that product, um, as we grow and as we want to add more things to that product, they're growing, and I think they will grow with us. Um, where we started out, and this is, uh, something I think that's really, really important when you're starting with a manual process and, and systems, we're not... Contracts is not the only system that is electronic in your, in, in your organization and in the university. So where we started when we were looking, um, at our contract management systems, and I'll be honest, the, the, the catalog that we looked at, um, that would've really been the perfect software system to use because we already have some systems that are automated. And we had company that we had, the, the company that provided that software did have a, um, an add-on that was for contracts and, um, purchasing.

16:18And honestly, it would've been nice to have added it to the existing system because you don't need to worry about any kind of issues with interface or, or, or shared data or anything. And so as we were looking for our system while we were looking for the money, we tried to be cognizant of what electronic systems that we already had in place that, um, might have data in it that we needed. And so whatever product we got, we wanted to make sure we could seamlessly integrate it. Right. It makes a lot of sense, right? Because it's, it's, it's very hard to, uh, to hire a new software and you still don't know which are the pain points on the different departments, and it's really hard to, to, to just ask, "Okay, so I need something that can work for everything."

17:12But you have to know exactly which process would you like to be mapped inside those platform. Because most of them, they are not just like, uh, plug and play. They have to be- Right... configured to the operation of the, of the- Correct... of the institution, and you have to know like, I don't know, which kind of reports would you like to have, which kind of data would you like to have, uh, in a dashboard or, or would you like to, um, uh, uh, to, to, to, to just have it easy, right? It just in your, in your fingertips. And that's another thing that I've seen in the market that a lot of companies are looking for systems that can be integrated with each other so they don't have to repeat and put all the manual information in the ERP and then in the CLM and then in the CRM, right? Because it takes- Right... it just, it, it just, um, um... I mean, it takes more time.

18:04And I, and I, and I know that these kind of Cadillacs softwares, they have a lot of features, but if you could just list like the most important one, like the top three. What exactly were you looking for or which were like the main pain points that were, uh, affecting the, uh, the, the institutional process? Yeah. So, um, we've... Some of the things that we were taking a look at, um, for instance, DocuSign. Right. What I wanted to make sure is, um, if I was going to look at a system that had a contract repository, um, component to it, I needed to make sure that it would integrate with DocuSign, because we had started to... Um, we do have a license for DocuSign. Mm-hmm. And, um, a- and, and we were actually using it, um, for, um, I think our financial aid.

19:03So if you want some financial aid, um, have to sign off on, um, you know, the documents that they have to upload, um, in order to be able to, um, to get their aid. And so we already had DocuSign, and, um, that, that process was already, um, automated. And so what I wanted to see was, okay, if we could do that for, um, financial aid and the financial... the system financial aid was doing it, you know, could we do it with, um, with, with the product that we were looking at? And, and what was funny is that we found out, yes, it does integrate, but, but then we, we had to learn things, um, for a while there. Um, when I got my product and we set up the DocuSign account, what I did not realize is different in- different units within the university had to have different accounts. Because when I first got them integrated, all of the financial aid documents started dumping into my contract repository. So, you know, so that's an example of you have to know what systems you have.

20:05You have to know how they're connected, um, in order to make sure that you've got the right data going to the right places. Um, so, um, we have a system in universities called Banner, and the Banner system keeps als- It's an Ellucian product, and, um, all of our data goes in there, um, from all of our units. So in a perfect world, it would've been able n- uh, to, to, to get, um, that Banner system because our admissions come off of it. Oh, I, I mean, our personnel come off of it. Our vendors, our, our contractors. I mean, everybody has information that they're inputting into Banner. And, um, so this, this system isn't on Banner, and it is somewhat separate. The only real integration that I have is with the DocuSign system. But at least for right now, I don't see any real drawbacks to using this contract repository system, um, outside of Banner, fortunately. Right. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, Pepe.

21:13And what about, like, data, right? Like, which kind of data or reports or notifications were you looking for? Yeah. And so a- at this time, I don't... I think I feel like this is one area that we are not as automated in, so it wasn't as difficult. Okay. Um, but I do believe that, um, as time goes on, it's gonna be really important to be able to have some other processes that are built, um, part of this process. Because like we were talking about budgeting. Yeah. Um, we need to make sure that whatever budgeting software we have, I wanna be able to take those contracts that I have in my repository, I want to assign them to different units, and then I want to be able to populate the software that the budget office has so they know when they're building out their budgets how much money do we anticipate flowing out of the university and which units will it be flowing out of.

22:19So they know how much money we have, how much money is going out, um, so that they can make, um, plans in terms of purchasing. Um, that's, that's one example. Another example also, um, may be vendors. Um, what I was finding is that we have different colleges on a college campus. And so, um, some of our accrediting, our accreditation require, um, certain kinds of surveys that students complete. And when I first got here, what we found was that different units were hiring different companies to do surveys. And so another, um, thing that your con- your, um, your contract management system can have is, um, for your vendors. And so if somebody wants, um, a vendor that provides, um, the ability to do surveys, if you have a component of your contract management system that says, "Here's all of your vendors, and here's the vendors in this category," the first thing you can do is go to your existing database of vendors and see if you've already got somebody on campus that you can use without going out and contracting for a different one.

23:32Because there was one year we had three different, um, providers of a service that were working for different units and had... And this is, this goes to the business case. If we knew that different units needed that service, we could have gotten one vendor to do it at a cost savings because the volume would've been bigger. Right. Yeah. That's a perfect case on how contracts can help other departments. Because I think, like, the more traditional way to understanding contracts is they're, they're instrument for risk management, right? Like, you just sign them and put them in a, in a, in, in a binder, and you don't open again until there's a problem with the seller or there's a problem with the provider, right? And that's what- Right... when the legal team has to say, "Okay, we agreed on this." But now with this information, you have real-time data, and they can help other departments, like procurement or any other department that would like to monitor the budget. Yeah.

24:29And another example I'll give you too is, um, a- and this sound, this sounds crazy, but, um, so we do have a system in our accounts, uh, payable section, and, uh, we have a net 30 days to pay our bills. And I'll be honest with you, I mean, I've got, I've got, uh, the business handbook, I look through it, but you- I haven't read it cover to cover, and I'll go look at it if somebody asks a question. But what I found out in talking with my, um, my purchasing director was that we were getting late fees because in a contract I did review, it said there was a net 10 days that it had to be paid or we would have to get, um, penalties. And so because I didn't understand that our contracting system, um, had an automatic, they, they would, they would, uh, you know, slot in when these bills would get paid, it all just automatically just all put them in the 30-day time s- uh, the time slot. And so we ca- every month we got late fees because we weren't paying it on time.

25:31Um, so that's, that's another example of... And you know what? I never even thought about this too. When you review a contract and you send it on to your whatever department that's gonna handle the contract, how do you know that there are specific provisions in there like a net payment? Nobody's there highlighting it for them and saying- Right... "By the way, here is an exception." 'Cause what if I couldn't have... And, and I ended up, by the way, renegotiating the contract and they were fine with putting it at 30 days and it took care of the problem. But I need to know that we need to do, um, a net 30, not net 10. And then if it has to be net 10, then you need to communicate to whoever is in the accounts, um, payable department to be able to go in and do some kind of override with their system to make sure that it, it pays correctly. But if you have a contract management system where you could identify de- um, details like that, then you could flag them for somebody so somebody can go in and make that manual change, or maybe eventually it'll be an electronic change and we can just press some buttons and, um, you know, the, the system will just take care of it.

26:40Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's definitely, you know, there's definitely tools out there that, that have that functionality. Um, a- and you know, I mean, Lisa, it, it really sounds like, you know, the, the core elements that were important to your team were especially, you know, the vendor management, the risk management, the alerts that we just talked about, and then as always, just keeping the data at your fingertips. Um, I mean, d- do you think I m- is there anything I missed? Did I skim over anything there? Or do you think that kinda sums it up? No, and I think that's correct. And, you know, and I think that, you know, the data, data is key, you know? A- and when you talk about building business cases, um, you need to have all of your data readily accessible so you can run all sorts of reports. Um, and you also need to make sure that the data is good data. And so to Pepe's point, when he was talking about, you know, you have to, you have all these different systems and sometimes you may have to enter in the data manually, it's not just a matter of, um, having to pay the money to do it, but it's also the accuracy of that data. Because if you're entering, if, if you are taking the information from one system and then manually entering it into another system and a human is doing that, there's chances for error, and then it's- Right...

27:51garbage in, garbage out. And we've, we have had situations where our data has, because our data was not good data, that, that it impacted a decision because of the data not being as accurate as it could've been. Yeah. And I think that that's, that's a whole nother conversation too is, right, is getting all of your data in place, correctly in place before kind of looking at these tools. There definitely are some steps that need to be taken before you look for a piece of software because the, the application's only gonna be good as, as good as your processes are. Um, and, and that's something that, you know, we, we try to help people with is, is, uh, getting those processes in place while they're, they're looking to purchase a piece of software so that when they're ready to go out there and, and buy an application, everything else is kind... The legwork has been done. Um, whi- which, that, that leads me to my next question. So Lisa, I mean, did you have to present any, any ROI numbers beforehand or, or have you, you done any ROI calculations after the fact of, of installing this solution?

28:49I mean, w- were any hard numbers really taken into the equation here, or, or was that really not part of the process? It wasn't part of my process, um, partly because we are as small as we are, and quite frankly, I didn't have the wherewithal to get the numbers, um, you know, because I'm such a small department. And that, I, I don't wanna make it sound like this was an easy process because it's kind of like a chicken and the, or, or the egg, what comes first. Part of the reason you need a CLM system is so that you can, um, gather all that data to be able to make these kinds of analyses. But if you don't have a system to begin with, how do you even start building the case with numbers if you don't know what your numbers are because you don't have a system in place? Right. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, but still, like, there's a lot of things that, I mean, some of, like, the late fees, right? Yes. Like, those- Yeah... those late fees makes a lot of sense- Yes...

29:48because those are real numbers. Like, if, if we had a system in place, we would know when to pay, right? And now we have to pay more. Yes. Yes. And so, you know, and, and that, and that is, that raises a good point. The other problem we had were automatic with, um, renewals, and that, you know, to the extent that I could have numbers, that was where actually my CFO did talk about- Um, we were carrying... So what would happen is we would have, um, a staff member enter into an agreement while they were here. There would be an automatic, uh, renewal provision. That person would leave the university and no one would know that there was an automatic pro- uh, renewal provision in that contract, and that person was gone and they were no longer using the software. And so that's an example of where you can show cost savings to the university when you show that you have several contracts that were auto-renewing, um, and you ended up having to pay money for products you weren't using because you didn't realize it auto- auto-renewed until after it auto-renewed. So you're out- exactly right.

30:50That is one place where I think you could get those numbers, is you have cost savings in, like, your late fees, um, and you have cost savings by ensuring that you don't have contracts auto-renewing when you don't need the product. Right. And that would definitely have been a way for me to be able to demonstrate, um, we could have a cost savings by doing this. Right. And that- and, and the software could have paid for itself. Yes. That's exactly. Well, and another question, now that we have the full picture on the whole process pre-COVID and now that you're using this kind of system, how do you think the team is working now? Do you think it's way more productive, um, or, or, or how it looks now? Are you happier? That is a real loaded question. So, you know, part of the problem, and this is the thing people have to remember, life is not gonna get better overnight. Right. It is a process. And so even though we have this system in place, now we have to train people on the system.

31:54And, and the other point that you made earlier I think is really, really important. When you buy a, a package, it's not configured to you. You don't just implement it and it works. Y- and, and so good news is if you have a good product where you can work with your vendor to configure it to your needs, and so what I would say is I'm still in the process of configuring my product to the needs of the university. And, um, so I- I've, I like this product because it's not, um, one of those products where you have to do work tickets and say, "I need you to fix the system so that it does this, this, and this for me." They taught me how to do it myself, and so I'm in there doing it. Um, and so honestly, nobody else touches the system right now but me, because I am trying to configure it to the process. And then once I configure it to the process, then I have to set it up. And then once I set it up, then we have to train people on how to use it. Right. Right.

32:55So and that was, this was something that I forgot to ask you, too, Lisa, is, you know, what was that implementation process like, I mean, with, with the, the product that you chose? I mean, obviously it sounds like they trained, they trained you how to, um, how to use the tool. Was, was there an offer for, like, a, a more robust im- implementation package where they, did they offer to train the rest of the team? Um, I mean, what, what did that kind of all look like? Yeah. And so, um, uh, what I would say is that, that the vendor I'm using right now is wonderful and, um, they, right now we haven't gotten to the training part. Okay. Right now I'm still at the con- the configuration part. You know, and part of it is, so, you know, what, what I was trying to figure out is I just decided I needed to add a field for, um, we call it our FOAP. And the FOAP is the field, um, that has account numbers that are associated to each university cost center so that we can do, like we talked about, um, getting contracts into the system and then having those contracts, those numbers associated with the contract so I could run a report for the budget office with each contract associated with each unit.

34:06Well, how are you gonna get 150 FOAPs into the system? And so what I had to work with the vendor, um, initially they showed me, "Oh, here, you can have a dropdown, and you can put all your different FOAPs into the dropdown." Okay, I did three or four and I'm like, "Are you kidding me? Am I gonna have, general counsel are gonna have to sit here and, and, um, type in 150 FOAPs into the system?" And so I went back to the vendor, and they were great, and they got their engineers on it, and they went ahead and they did it for me. Mm-hmm. So I've worked with my vendor, um, and so I don't necessarily have a contract that says... And you do need to look. What kind of service and support are they gonna provide you in the implementation? Um, I'm working with a small, small enough vendor, um, that, um, they've been giving this to me, but it's not something that's in the contract and it's not something they have to do. Right. Um, but I appreciate them feeling like, um, they're, they're, they're small, they're new, they're hungry and, um, they wanna be successful, and in order for them to be successful, I have to feel successful because I'm telling you, I'm li- I'm, I'm posting about them all over LinkedIn as soon as I get this thing working.

35:20No, that's great, and I think, you know, it's, it's nice to work with smaller companies for that fact right there, right? They are willing to go above and beyond and, and they wanna treat every customer, um, the way that they would wanna be treated as a customer, because it is so impactful when you're at those early stages. So that's, that's great to hear. Um, and we look forward to, to seeing who that, you know, that publisher is when, when the timing is right and you're ready to release that information. Um, I, I know we're, we're coming up. You know, we've, we've been chatting for a while now. We're trying to keep these things short. I know we could ta- probably talk about this for another hour or so, but, um, Pepe, did, did you have any, uh, any final questions for, for Lisa? Well, I would love to schedule a second call when everything is already implemented, because that's a- another thing that a lot of vendors are facing right now, the adoption of new software, because a lot of enterprises, it's a whole process to build the business case, then the implementation, which is understanding their, the, their customer needs, and then the adoption, because a lot of companies, they already spend a lot of money on software, but if their staff is not using the software, then- That's a problem, right? So it will be- Right... it will be great talking to you again, Lisa, so when all, when all of this, uh, uh, well, ends.

36:30And, and so you can tell us couple of re- recommendations on, on, on what should, uh, companies and stakeholders in- inside, uh, uh, enterprises should be looking for. Absolutely. I'd love to come back and chat. Great. Great. All right, Lisa, so we got two final questions for you here. Okay. So if, if, uh, you have, you know, somebody's out there, they're searching for their first CLM tool, they're looking for a contract management application, what two tips above all else would you give them, uh, to, to kinda lead them with right now? I mean, I, I, I think that, um, number one, you need to go out and you need to do a lot of demos from a lot of different companies. Um, and I think that you need to include, um, more people on your team that are looking at that, um, those demos because it is really, really important to understand. Like I said, w- I had to do this with my purchasing director, um, a- a- and, and, you know, budgeting. We had to have these conversations because the product's not just gonna be for, uh, you know, one person.

37:32It's gonna be with several units. So make sure you've got, um, everybody who's involved in that process at the table evaluating the product so that you know and understand what their needs are so you can make sure that the product's, what, what the product offers is gonna fill those needs. Great. Great. I think that's a, that's a great tip, and, and something that, you know, we run into often is people don't bring all the stakeholders to the table or other departments that think that they, to begin with, they're not included in the project, and then all of a sudden they do get included in the project. And, and that definitely, um, causes, causes opportunities, or, or in this case, projects to, to kinda slow down and come to a halt because teams really need to understand what their internal processes are before they go out there and, uh, and start to work or, or look for an application to help with this kinda process. Right. Absolutely. Great. Well, Lisa, we thank you. This, uh, this conversation was great. I think Pepe and I have even learned a lot. Yes. Um, and w- we hope our, our listeners are, are gonna learn a lot from this too.

38:30So we hope to have you back on once the system is fully implemented. We'd love to hear about, you know, what that process looked like, what the user adoption rate was, any other, you know, bottlenecks that the team was facing. So we thank you, and, uh, we hope to have you on again soon.