Building an in-house legal team from the ground up with Jack Terschluse

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Today we've got a, a great one for you. Uh, Jack and I, and Pepe have been trying to get this on the calendar for a while, so we're excited here. Uh, Jack Treshleus over at Balto. He is the corporate counsel, and, uh, Jack, thanks for joining us. Excited to have you here. Before f- we, uh, we flip things over to Pepe to give you a little bit of an inside look into what we're gonna be chatting about, would love to, uh, have you give the listeners just a little bit more information on yourself. Of course. Yeah. Uh, thank you so much, Marc, Pepe, and, uh, to the audience, thank you so much for having me. I, I'm a fan of the podcast, so it's, uh, definitely a lot of fun to be here. Uh, so I, um, am, uh, from St.

0:59Louis, Missouri, and I, uh, went to, uh, WashU for undergrad, uh, and law school. I worked for a big law firm here in town for two years, uh, and interestingly enough, um, had only spent about four or five months actually in the office before, um, you know, the, uh, obviously the pandemic rolled around. Um, so my practice of law, uh, was very much influenced by, um, you know, working from home. And w- when that all happened, I, you know, kind of felt the ground shift in the world a little bit, in the, in the legal world, and, uh, realized that it was a great opportunity to start looking at other, um, companies, other opportunities that, you know, uh, pre-pandemic might not have, uh, been possible. So I, um, had been talking for a while with, uh, Balto, uh, actually trying to get their business, uh, to come to the firm, um, and I knew the founders from, uh, WashU.

1:55And so, uh, you know, one thing led to another, and so here I am. It's a completely different world than the big law, big law firm, um, but it's, it's really a thrill. So as corporate counsel, um, I'm, y- my mission and, and vision is really to make, uh, legal impactful and relatable to, um, our, our colleagues, uh, um, clients and partners and, uh, the St. Louis community. Uh, so I try to do that, and that's my intention, and, uh, try to, uh, bring tips and tricks that I've found along the way into being a corporate counsel team, a legal team of one for, um, for quite a while and try to bring that, um, any of the insights that I've gathered. I still have a long ways to go, still learning quite a bit, uh, but happy to share what I've learned here with you all. So thank you so much for having me. No, thanks to you for sharing your knowledge, Jack, and I gotta say that I love these episodes because, uh, we've been talking a lot about contract management and on the technical part, but I also love, uh, to talk about people inside in-house team in companies.

3:01I, I used to work also on a big law, and I love to talk with the people from what I call the other side of the desk, right? Mm. There are, like, real business problems. And so Jack, I would like to kick off this interview by, uh, talking about some of, some of the main topics, right, which is, uh, legal operations and contract management. So, uh, Jack, can you give us what tips and tricks do you have for other in-house professional that are currently, uh, a team of one like you were for a period of time? Yes, absolutely. It is, um, not easy to be that, um, but it's also, uh, if you have the right personality for it, it's incredibly fun, um, because you never know exactly what, uh, will, uh, come your way. You wear many different hats. Um, so, you know, I've, I've come to realize that, um, you know, you, you want to, uh, first have an understanding with, uh, the decision-makers at the company.

4:01Um, so, you know, you wanna get on their calendar and discuss with them, you know, what exactly, uh, do you think a successful legal person in the company, uh, would look like? Um, you know, like, like what do they do on a day-to-day basis for the company? And then also ask them what are the company priorities, then align all the tasks that you have with those company priorities. So I learned from a very early time, you know, day one almost at, at Balto, that, you know, sales is number one, vendors is number two, and everything else is number three. Uh, so, um, you know, uh, obviously everything's important, right? I mean, that's why it's getting to your desk. But, uh, if you have to make trade-offs, that's what we're talking about. I mean, it, it is, it is brutal. It's pretty, uh, ruthless in some respect, but, um, when you have a million different things, that's how you prioritize it. So, uh, with that, you know, that's probably my first, um, you know, my, my, my first, uh, uh, tip. The second I would say is, um, if you can, um, try to leverage outside counsel, um, that you have ha- uh, perhaps that the team has used or find a, uh, low-cost overflow, um, attorney, um, who is, you know, very efficient and doesn't over-legal, so to speak, every agreement that you would send them.

5:30So we have a, a great outside counsel, um, uh, TechLaw SF that, um, you know, for a retainer every month will review a certain number of hours of agreements, uh, that if I don't have time to review them, I can send it to them. And they're experts in the SaaS industry, so they just review things, um, you know, in a very timely manner and, you know, with an expertise that they don't over-lawyer the agreement. You know, 'cause we wanna tell them, like, we wanna get deals done. We don't wanna, we don't wanna sit in red lining for a long period of time. So if you have the budget to do that, that's great. If you can't, then, um, I think my next, um- Uh, tip would be then to create a checklist of sorts with your, um, you know, uh, with what your company cares about. So when you do get these massive amounts of contracts coming your way, you can go through them much more quickly. Um, so there are lots of different ways and, and companies that, that will provide you a checklist.

6:27You know, there, there's a lot out there. Um, but that is probably how I would, uh, manage time, you know? And, and, um, you know, those are probably the highlights. No, and I totally agree with you, right, on the, on all the three points. The first one that I, uh, um, w- I think... Well, it was, uh, the first one or the second one. Uh, prior- prioritizing. On, on how you prioritize. Yeah, that one. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it makes completely the sense, right? When you talk about sales and vendors, it's just like the cashflow of the company. If- Mm-hmm... if you don't produce sales, of course, like, the company is going to be into problems. And vendors are also important, so your company can produce your products and services that you can offer to your, to, to, to your customers so that you can start having some cash flows, right? Mm-hmm. And one question b- before we start digging a little bit deeper on contract management, uh, Jack, and this is especially when you're, um, um, a team of one, right? Okay.

7:27And, and I know that a lot of the times being a, a corporate counsel inside a company is like, it's a very reactive position, right? Because there are some fires that you have to shut down because there were, like, some stuff going on inside the company, and it's very hard to have a, a strict schedule on how you can divide your time, right? Right. I, I think it's, it, it's very difficult to say, "On Mondays, I'm gonna check contracts. On Tuesday, I'm gonna check employment stuff," right? Because you, you need to react, uh, on, on, on how those, uh, issues or, or emergencies- Mm-hmm... are coming. But how do you interact with, uh, with sales and the vendors? Let's say is it... We've seen a, a trend on the legal teams trying to do a little bit of self-service, right? On special kind of contracts, right?

8:19If a vendor is, uh, just starting negotiation, um, uh, with the procurement team, maybe they can use a template of NDAs and they can send it for signatories, not necessary that the, the, the legal team- Mm-hmm... checks them up. But, uh, can we go a little bit deeper right now on... And I love that third tip on, on that checklist. Like, how does- Yeah... it looks like? So I, in, in terms of i- you mentioned, like, being more proactive than reactive, um, I think- Right... being a team of, a legal team of one, I, I think it is extremely difficult to, to get away from being reactive. I think there's always gonna be an element of it. I, I, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that, "Oh, do these three things and you'll be proactive." I d- I just don't, I don't... Honestly speaking, I, I don't think it's possible. Um, however, um, I think you can do some things to mitigate it. So you can...

9:12I, for instance, set up standing meetings biweekly with, um, you know, people that touch a lot of our, like, the touch points with our legal contracts. So, you know, meeting with, uh, you know, our sales VPs and, you know, um, uh, whether it's the, the marketing department or, you know, our COO. So I, I meet with them every two weeks, so I, I know what is coming down the pipeline. Um, and we have, uh, you know, a, a, actually a weekly meeting. It's a 15-minute meeting that is, uh, we call it Deals on Wheels, where we literally, um, just meet with the sales VPs and they tell us what deals are coming down the pipeline so we can understand, "Okay, this is gonna be a really complex deal. We'll be on the lookout for it," um, so that there are no surprises. Uh, but, um, and then, uh, you know, to be honest, uh, wh- when we started out, uh, like, as a...

10:08When you're a legal team of one, yeah, I, I have a little bit of a different opinion on where, you know, if we wanna... The rush to create, like, self-service, um, contracts, um, you know, that is only as good as, like, you train the sales team to, um, to do that well, and that you're trusting the output is going to be something you're comfortable going in front of, you know, whoever it is, the vendor or, or the, or the, uh, uh, prospect. So in some respects, I think being a legal team of one is a lot of you are going to be very hands-on with a lot of the contracts. Um, and I think it is a long-term goal that you get to, um, being a self-service type entity, but I think that requires a lot more work than I think people realize in terms of you really have to train people how to, you know, insert the data and, you know, uh, you know, have good data hygiene, you know, trash in, trash out.

11:20And then, um, and then also you have to make sure that the template that's being spit out is clean enough that it can go in front of a prospect or a vendor that you're comfortable with. Because the bad, you know, the... Realize if, like, okay, once a, once a prospect or, uh, you know, especially a prospect sees a document, there's really no going back from it. So you have to make sure that if you're gonna give your sales team a self-service tool and it's gonna spit out a contract, you gotta be r- you, you gotta be really sure that you're okay with those terms being in front of a, a, a customer, 'cause you can't really walk 'em back. Yeah. No, I, I definitely agree there. And, uh, you know, Jack, I, I think, uh, uh, I guess how did, how does the team come up with, with those documents, you know? L- l- one, the legal language, right? Um, uh, is that- Yeah... something that, you know, you, you helped to build from scratch? Was, was there already some, maybe some templates in place before you got there and, and you kind of tweaked them? Yeah.

12:16Um, what did that look like? So we, uh, when I started, we, uh, had templates. Um, you know, we had an order form, our terms, you know, all your standard documents, so that was really great, so I could hit the ground running with that. Um, and then we also, uh, before I started, had, uh, engaged a, uh, CLM, so literally I started, and we had maybe signed the CLM contract the, the week before. Um, so it... Part of my onboarding was actually getting those, um, documents over a few months uploaded into the CLM, um, and then, uh, you know, training the sales team to, uh, to use it, um, you know, to, to decide, like, okay, you know, here's the legal language that we're going to, to tweak. Um, and then, you know, I just worked with, um, our, uh... And to get to your point about, like, how do you decide, like, what legal language to use, um, and how to tweak it, uh, what I actually did was, um, I asked, um, our outside counsel, who's an expert in the SaaS kind of contracting space, and I said, "Hey, can we meet for 30 minutes every Friday, um, just to, just to talk things through? You know, please don't bill me for it. I literally- I'll be loyal if you wanna do this."

13:32Uh, just talk for 30 minutes about anything, contracts coming up, like language that we just wanna change in our templates. And that was a really good way to just understand, you know, 'cause they're the ones who drafted them, so it was a good way for me to understand, okay, here is, like, some gaps maybe in the language, here's what we're seeing, so we could collaborate. You know, I would put, um... And Pepe, this is maybe going back a little bit to how you're talking about, like, how do you set up, like, okay, here's Monday I'm doing sales contracts, Tuesdays I'm doing employment contracts. I don't really think that's possible to set, uh, you know, a- as you said, to separate them day to day, but what I do is I set aside time each day, here's a work block. So I usually really try to, um, there's an app out there called Reclaim that will, um, you know, you tell it every day, "I want two hours of quiet work time." It'll find out, like, based on what meetings you have, where it's gonna put that two-hour block. Um, and it'll adjust it over time, so that's how I manage my time, you know, to have, like, that, those moments where I'm not getting pinged left and right.

14:36So yeah, so I know that was, I just probably jumped in like five different directions there, uh, but, um, I hope that's helpful. No, no- No, I-... I think that's great. Yeah, you know, it, uh- Yeah... it's always, it's always interesting for us to, to, to hear how, how different, uh, organizations are, you know, one, leveraging, like you are, right? Leveraging outside counsel. It's, it's not something a lot of large organizations really don't, don't do that as, as much, and it's probably because it's just not as needed as much. Um, but I, I think it's interesting, you know, that, that you, when you started, started with the organization, right, they were already in the process of kind of implementing that CLM tool. So, you know, you've been there for what, around 10 months now I, I think. Um, uh, how, how do you think, and, uh, you know, it might be a little hard to say because you started when that tool was being implemented, but, you know, h- what was that implementation process like and, and how was it... How was the user adoption to, to bring, like, the sales team up to speed to be end users inside the system and, you know, other folks inside the organization? Um- Mm-hmm...

15:35you know, were, were any end users harder to get adopted to the system? Were there any specific processes that were harder than others to, to kind of get up and running, or was everything a pretty fluid process? I would say that, um, you know, in general it's a, um, adoption for any sort of, um, uh, new tool in your tech stack is difficult. Um, you know, I think you want to really make it very clear what is the why behind bringing it on. Um, that was where I think maybe I first, uh, stumbled in the adoption process, was just saying, "Hey, here's this new tool. Y- you know, let's use it." Um, I think, uh, then the feedback I got was, "Okay, well, let's understand, like, uh, why are we implementing this tool? Like, why should a- an account exec, anyone on the sales team care about this?" Um, and so, you know, essentially was, "Okay, well, l- let's go back to square one.

16:36We're implementing this because, uh, one, you don't have to create order forms from scratch. You can input your info and it spits out a template. Then we can manage approvals on the back end, um, so it theoretically should be quicker, um, you know, the approval process. And, um, and then it also then can spit it right into DocuSign, so we're not having to, you know, separately upload things." And then the other why is, um, you know, once we really clean up our data, you know, in our contracts, we can have this incredible, um, intelligence on what's in our contracts, what's missing from our contracts. Um, you know, there's, there's a lot of nuance there that is really, you know, just begging to be mined. So really, you know, I think you need to, from adoption sample, you have to start with the why, um, and then pick probably, you know, if I could do it over, um, I think, you know, w- we are moving from, um, kind of a slower adoption to quicker adoption now, where we're integrating with Salesforce.

17:43So we're integrating our S- our s- our CLM with Salesforce so that our AEs, uh, only will have one place where they need to do their contracting. So where our adoption got a little messy is that we had, um, you know, they had our CLM, and then they had their Salesforce. So they're kind of sometimes picking and choosing where they wanna enter their data. Obviously, you know that can be a little dangerous. So, um, you know, you wanna make sure that you roll it out, that when, so it's integrated with all your different tools, um, insofar as that's possible. But, um, with your adoption, you're gonna wanna make sure that, you know, you have your- To pick out two champions, people who you really train really deeply on the product, and then can go out and evangelize. Then you're gonna wanna, uh, maybe pick out two or three people you think might be detractors, and be very transparent with them, and have very honest conversations about, like, "What don't you like about this?

18:42What needs to improve? What do I need to change about this so you'll use it?" So I think we've been having some very honest conversations with our sales team, which has been, um... I've been really grateful for it. Some very hard conversations, um, about, like, you know, "Hey, m- maybe here's what, why, um, you know, we're not a, a fan," or, you know, "But here's why maybe this team is a fan. How can we reconcile these two differences?" You know, like, h- here's why this team is really using a CLM. Here's why maybe this team isn't. So we've been having those honest conversations. Um, so yeah, I, I maybe would say the takeaways from m- maybe what I just said is, uh, make sure it can be integrated with all your different tools that the people you wanna use it are using, so they don't have to have two separate environments. Uh, second is that identify champions and potential detractors. Um, and then third, um, you know, really identify the why for everyone, why you're implementing this sort of thing. Cool.

19:42I love how, how clear you have all the goals and objective- Yeah... on implementing that software. I was, I, I was actually just checking the Reclaim AI site. It's- Yeah... it, it, it looks great, actually, and I think that's, like, how you can start putting some blocks of time whenever you want to, uh, just have, like, two hours, or one hour- Yeah... uh, so you can focus on specific points. And, uh, and so going, going back on the, on the CLM implementation, I totally agree with you on how to find a way to integrate with other softwares, right? Because there's a problem with a lot of medium and big corporations, is that they have da- different databases, right? With information from their vendors, and the information from their customers, but there's no centralized way. But once you have it integrated, then you can sync the information between both, or, uh, or- Yeah... among all of the softwares. That would be, like, pretty, uh, useful.

20:41And so, so, so Jack, this is, thi- thi- this is a new one, but can you imagine your work life without having that CLM, just, like, doing everything via email, and then ju- just having, like, a Dropbox? Like... I- How do you think it would be? Yeah. Um, I mean, no, I, I couldn't imagine it. You know, uh, for, um, you know, all of the, you know, e- e- every CLM vendor is gonna have its pluses and minuses, but I think that you really should just, even if it's imperfect, I think you need to get one. You need to get a CLM. Have, you know, getting the budget for it, and, like, getting the company to adopt it, that's separate discussion. But, uh, you know, I think having it is, is really, really helpful. So instead of, um, you know, having a kind of ad hoc, uh, procedure where people are, uh, y- you know, Slacking you, "Hey, I need an order form for this. Hey, I have an email for this. Like, here's a Google Doc," like, you know, it's at, at least it's all in one system, right? It's all in one place. It's, uh, you know, um, they, uh, the o- the other, uh, uh, big plus is that, um, you have the process locked down.

21:57So this is, I think, you know, um, if there's one takeaway from this whole podcast, it's that you, um, if you're going to go into a startup, and you are a legal team of one, you need to set the expectation from day one that legal documents flow through you. So, uh, I have a phrase, um, that, you know, thou shall not procure without procurement. So, uh, you know, you need to have... You can't go out and get a vendor without me seeing the document. Yeah. You can't put something on your credit card without me seeing the agreement. Um, it might be very cumbersome, but you know, you can get the company into positions where we're in a three-year agreement that we don't wanna be in. The same thing then applies to, like, order forms and, and sales documents, right? It can't, you can't send it out before I see it. Unfortunately, I know that sucks, but that's what a s- a CLM really allows you to get a control over, because people can only pick and choose, like, pre-approved clauses, right, for their contracts.

23:07So, you know, before, where there was, like, you know, kind of the Wild West of contracting, you know, and, and, and that's okay. Every startup, th- there is nothing to be ashamed of about if you have the, you know, you, you, you're doing contracts on an ad hoc basis. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just where you start out. The, the huge negative of that, though, is that you're gonna have clauses that differ from, from, you know, salesperson to salesperson. So why you get a CLM, in my opinion, in the first place, is you s- it's all about standardization, right? It's all about standardizing, um, the clauses that are going out. You're not having people editing order forms with their own language or their, you know, their own style. You know, it's all about creating a, a w- a, a template, right, that's going out. Um, so for me, that is why CLM, I can't really, I guess, quote, "live without it," is because it keeps everything in one place. Yeah.

24:06And, and, you know, having that single source of truth is, is definitely something that we, we ad- advocate for when it, when it comes to CLM. I think that's kind of the, the really, the, the main thing that a system like that can help with. Obviously, there's other functionalities, but it really depends on your organization, how you leverage those other functionalities on, on top of that. And, and so Jack, so y- the team just hired a, a legal ops person, is that right? Yes. Yeah Are you still- are, so are, have they been hired? Are you still going through the process? Yeah, they have. They've been h- Okay... they've been hired, and, uh, she is, uh, doing a great job. She's been here for I think almost three months now. Okay. And, and do you think, you know, obviously, I, I think there's kind of a trend, right? You, you... for most smaller organizations, right, you start to look for technology, you purchase that technology, and then you realize you need somebody to really run that piece of technology. Um- Mm-hmm... so, so maybe you could give us an understanding of, you know, h- what, what that process looked like bringing her on board. Um, what's she in charge of? Mm-hmm.

25:03And, and also, you know, was that something that, that you really advocated for? Was that something that the company just immediately was like, "Hey, we, we do need this," or- Yeah... what does that look like? Yeah, I... So there's, there's a lot here. So, um, I'll probably just be talking and, and stop. So, um, so I, you know, joining, uh, Balto, I, I was very, very lucky. I know, I, I know people joining as a legal department of one are not always in this position. So I start off with a bias like this that, um, I was, you know, I started, we already bring on a CLM. So, you know, that's already a struggle for people on day one of, like, trying to get the company to bring on a CLM. Well, I was lucky. I started, we had, um, or were onboarding it. Um, and then I was lucky again that when, um, we brought on a new CFO, um, and my, the legal department was moved within this, this, uh, the, uh, under, under her. Um, you know, she had said, "Hey, do you need someone?

26:10Like, do you need, uh, you know, a paralegal? Do you need another attorney? Do you need another, uh, you know, uh, uh," you know, I... She started from a, a perspective like I'm not really even sure what a legal department, you know, what our needs are at this time, but just tell me. And so I said, "Hey, I think, like, a, a legal ops professional would be our next hire." And she said, "Okay, well, let's talk about that." So we set up a, a budget and, you know, um, the, so that's how it started. So I had it really easy. Um, I wanna make that very clear. I'm not gonna sit here and tell people, preach from an ivory tower about, like, how to get a s- a CLM and how to get a legal ops professional, um, you know, when I had it pretty easy. Yeah. But I can offer what I, how I would maybe approach it if, um, uh, you know, I was not in, in the position that I, that I am and was in. Um, how I would approach it, um, for a CLM, I would, uh, first try, uh, keep track of, um, what contracts are, are currently being reviewed. Uh, and I would probably do it over maybe, like, a three-month period.

27:23Here are, here are the deals that I have done without a CLM. Here are the, um, things that have happened because we have not had a CLM. Here is the time that I spent on them, right? Here's the time, uh, you know, that, uh, w- was lost, you know, perhaps because of, you know, dealing with, with contracts on an ad hoc basis. I would then present, ask, I, I, I would then take that three year, like, status or, sorry, three month, not three year, three-month status quo of how things went, and I would probably send that to a bunch of different CLM vendors. You know, maybe narrow it down to three or four and I would say, "How will your CLM make this better?" Like, and then I would then present that to, you know, the, uh, powers that be at the company- Yeah... who have power over budget and all sorts of things. And I would just get the proposals. You know, I, I wouldn't, um, uh, start off from a blank slate because really, you know, I think it's a little scary when you bring up a solut- uh, a problem at a company, um, but you don't also bring solutions, right?

28:34So I think that's, you know, something that you, you, that you need to do. So, so don't come to the table unprepared. So I, I would come to it saying, like, if here's the current state of affairs, here's what these CLMs say they can do for me, and also, um, I will then free up my time to work on the company's most important strategic objectives. So because I have a CLM, I don't have to keep as close an eye on, you know, okay, what, what documents are going out the door because, um, you know, one, you have a legal ops and you have a CLM that kind of locks it all down. But now I can focus on our data privacy initiatives, our employment initiatives, our, you know, um, uh, cybersecurity initiatives, um, you know, our board governance and, you know, just all sorts of different things that, like, if I was just doing the day-to-day contracting every single day would not be possible, and I think that brings a ton of value to the company. Um, you know, and, um, so, so, so that's where I, I think the, uh, uh, how I would approach bringing on a CLM. Um- So Jack, before- Yeah... you go on- Yeah...

29:46on the legal ops, uh, side, like in talking about the stakeholders on the CLM, like, uh, so what we in, in our experience, like- Mm-hmm... um, a lot of the time it's not only the legal team who benefits for this kind of t- of, of- Yeah... tools, right? So do you think there's a benefit for other areas, like the priorities for you, like vendors, uh, management or with- Mm-hmm... with the procurement team or sales team? Like, have you seen a benefit, uh, to those department by using, uh, CLM? Yes. So I think, you know, um, there are lots of different business use cases for a CLM, and one of the ways I think you can really sell it to your organization is, you know, maybe, uh, bring on, you know, like when you're evaluating different CLMs, you know, bring on, uh, you know, maybe a champion from each department that- Could make, make use of it. Um, I would say there's one department in particular that really should be at the helm of picking the CLM, and that's your revenue operations, rev ops for short.

30:48Um, you know, all your contracts, you know, your most important contracts, the sales contracts that are gonna be flowing through on a day-to-day basis, your CLM. Well, your, your rev ops person is really gonna have the best sort of understanding of how your sales org works. So i- if, if you're talking about, um, uh, stakeholders, I think your, your... One of the main stakeholders is actually your revenue operations, um, team. Um, so make sure that they like th- you know, that they're on board with the CLM and, you know, the, the vendor that you pick. Um, so I... Yes, I, I hope that kinda addresses the, the question. Great. You know, it, it completely does. So and, and now I'm sorry, Jack, can you move forward on how would you approach on how to, uh, hire somebody inside the legal ops? And I gotta say that I'm very impressed, right? Because the CFO didn't even ask you, like, "What's a legal ops," right? Yeah. Because in, in a lot of the times, like, they have no idea what, what it means. Yeah. Legal operation. What, what's that?

31:48Yeah. No, it, it is a new field. And, um, you know, I, uh, you know, w- was thankful for our CFO in, in having, you know, that, that sort of, um, knowledge in, in, from the industry. And, um, so, uh, I, and I believe at, at her prior company, she had been, um, you know, uh, also overseeing legal, so I think she had, you know, some sort of background on that. Um, now if I didn't have that, that luxury, um, here's how I think I, I would approach it. I think it's the same perspective of like, you know, writing down the current state of affairs, uh, like that you did with the CLM. Uh, but you know, you have to then make sure, you know, that, that they know that, okay, managing a CLM also requires my time. So really, you know, really with any process change, I... This is a, a broader point. So like bringing on a CLM or, you know, whatever it might be, you know, you have to a- ask yourself that, okay, what problems, I'm trading these sets of problems for these sets of problems.

32:55So I'm trading, uh, you know, without a CLM, the Wild West of contracting for, uh, the new problem of managing a, a, a new software that can be perhaps clunky, you know, um, it, it, you know, perhaps like, you know, there may adoption issues, you know. A- any CLM is gonna have those. Um, so now you have to present the problem as, okay, now I'm managing training people on a CLM, you know, all the intricacies of it, making sure it works, and, you know, fixing bugs and everything. And, um, and I'm also now being, you know, asked to, um, you know, do all the things that a corporate council needs to do on a day-to-day basis. Um, you're, you know, now we've invested all this money in a CLM, we need to make that investment go as far as possible.

33:55So again, it's not like the best thing, it's like saying, you know, w- we need to spend more money, uh, you know, 'cause we just spent all this money on a CLM, now we need to spend more on a legal ops professional. But if, uh, you know, you make the case that, um, ultimately this legal ops professional can accelerate deal velocity, I know that, that sounds very startup-y and very trendy, uh, but really the legal ops field, not only... I, I would make the case not only that it's gonna manage the CLM and just, you know, uh, really, um, make sure, uh, that they're getting all the juice out of it that we can, but also that they are a person, so to speak, who's on call. Not, I, I don't mean that in the sense that they're working all the time, but their, you know, their one job is really to make sure that our deals are getting through quick, that legal is not a bottleneck. Um, and that, um, you know, whatever it is that, uh, needs to be done in legal can go to them first.

35:08Um, so it's really someone who can accelerate deal velocity. If you can tell your exec team that by hiring this person, we're gonna accelerate our deals, you know, perhaps by like 25%, we're gonna cut out a fourth of the, the red lighting time or half of it, I, that, that's, you know, that is very, very compelling. That's how I would present it. I love it. I love it. Um, I, I, Jack, I know we, this conversation kind of went in, went in a completely different direction- ... than, than what we had originally planned on, right? But, um- Yeah... I g- I gotta say, I think that there was, uh, just so much information out there for, for organizations that, one, are, are looking to, to purchase or, or starting to look to implement a, a CLM tool, a- as well as, you know, organizations like you or maybe they're a legal team of one or two that, um, that need to, to show value and, and wanna bring on board, um, somebody to, to handle legal ops. I, I think that there was some great takeaways in there too.

36:04Um, so, you know, usually we, we ask, I don't know, usually a question at the end of this, but I don't even want to, to tear from the fact of, of how much value we, we just brought to the conversation, so I'm not even gonna do that. Yeah. Um, oh, I just wanna... A, we wanna, we wanna thank you for coming on, and, you know, if, if, um, if folks wanna either connect with you, learn more about, you know, the processes that you've put in place or, or how you went about these things, uh, is, is LinkedIn the best, the best place to do that? Absolutely. Yeah. I'm, you know, I don't have any, like, rules about, like, connecting with people on LinkedIn. Like, I, I connect with anyone, and just, you know, shoot me a message. Uh, so please do. Okay. All right. Everybody, well, hey, Jack, we appreciate it. Thanks everybody for giving this a listen. Hopefully we brought some value, and we'll see you back here in a couple of weeks for our next episode of Contract Heroes. Thanks, everyone.