Building the Bridge Between Business and Legal - Dan Hendy

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. So Dan, thanks again for your time, uh, with us here in the podcast, and I think it will be very interesting because you have the whole experience, right, in, in both sides of the, uh, of the industry. You've been, like, working on the in-house, you've seen the, the problem at your, uh, the firsthand. Uh, you've seen how technology might be, uh, might be useful for a lot of lawyers and, and how it can become more efficient to do all their day-to-day work. And now on the other side, you've been working as a consultant and, and helping other companies to start implementing, uh, technology in order to make them a little bit more, more efficient. But before we start talking about, uh, the whole thing about the contract management and how that tech- technology can help the in-house teams, I would like to take a step back, right, and start talking about legal operations.

1:08Because now it's not just respected, but it, but, but it's essential for every organization, and now you have to run your legal department s- the same way as a CFO runs the finance department or any CMO runs the marketing, uh, department. But I would like you, uh, to, to give us a little bit on the, on your experience, Dan, on how would you describe the work of the legal ops team inside a company? Yeah, sure, Pepe. So, um, it's, it's, uh, it's interesting. It's like I f- I feel almost like, like a, you know, a grandfather in this space, and it's not that old, right? Um- Right... so, so really, like, my, uh, you know, my, my first foray into legal ops started in about 2015, and it's incredible to me just in the span of, like, seven years how, uh, the function has, uh, and the role, um, has really evolved, um, over that, over that time period. It started, um it, it, it started, like, the, the job that I had at GE, w- the, the r- my predecessor was really more of like what I would call a traditional chief of staff to the general counsel.

2:23And- Right... um, when, you know, o- one of the reasons that I was interested in, in, in taking the role, besides it was a great opportunity to work with the general counsel, was that, you know, th- I just saw in my role there were so many things that were just not working, right? Within the, the legal department. Like, when you looked around, you're like, "Man, why do we do it this way?" Or like, you know, "Why is it so hard to get, um, you know, this or that?" Right? And, and I think that that's really kinda how legal ops started, right? That it started first as, uh, you know, departments, um, as they, as they got bigger and, and more, and more people, um, went and were working on the in-house side of, of legal teams, they saw that there was a need to do things like, you know, leverage your spend, um, with outside counsel and manage your outside counsel. That you had a lot of different people in different pockets of the organization that were raising their hand and saying, "Hey, I need a document management system," or, "I need, you know, something to help me automate contracts," right?

3:22And you had no, and a filter for, um, y- you know, what projects got approved, you know, what should the ROI be on those projects, right? Things like- Right... you know, managing, you know, managing budgets, right? Just simple management of, you know, these team sizes are getting big. You know, there's an expectation that you as the general counsel are managing your cost. You know, who's helping you do that, right? Um- Right... so I think that's kinda how legal ops started, right? In terms of those kinds of, um, you know, those kinds of tasks that, um, exist within a, within a law department. Um, but to really get to, like, the point that I, I think, y- you know, the expectation, uh, where the expectation is today that, you know, the, the legal department is acting as, um, more of a high functioning, you know, function within, um, the department, um, s- something's gotta really change, right? Like, you, you've, you... To really run the legal department like a CFO runs the finance department, y- you gotta have data, right? Right. You have to be equipped with, with data.

4:31And, and I would say, like, looking back, that was one of the biggest limitations that I had in, in my role, is we weren't really set up to collect the, the operational data on what the kinda true throughput of the law department is and, and data on, you know, the performance of the law department. We weren't set up to really capture any of that information. So kinda who was doing what, you know, how well they were doing what they were supposed to be doing, like, that, that was really hard to, to pull together. And what I think is really intriguing about where this space is going now is that as a GC or a chief legal officer, you know, you, you have to be able, the expectation now in, in that, um, boardroom or that C-suite meeting- Right... is that you've gotta be able to present something more than just, you know, "Hey, we work on really complicated things, and let me tell you about, you know, this case I'm working on, that case."

5:39Y- you really, the expectation set is, as a, as a department you're able to really quantitatively show the impact that you're having on the, on the business. Um, so i- in the, in the, the upside for the, the leaders of the law department when they do that is that they become more- More credible with their, their peers. When they really can show that they've got, you know, control on the management of their, their, their function, um, it, it positions them, um, in a way that, in my opinion, is how every, you know, every senior lawyer wants to be perceived i- that goes in-house. And that's, they've done that because they wanna be recognized as, like, a business partner, like, "I'm part of the business." And, and when you can really show kind of what's h- what's happening with your department, the v- and the impact that you as a function are having in a quantitative way, that, that's really cool, and it, it goes a long way, I think, to, you know, positioning, um, you know, general counsels in that light.

6:42So- Right... I think that's, you know, that's, um, that, that's how I see some of the evolution, right? Just to kind of bring it back. It's like, you know, it started with just these manage outside counsel, manage our technology stack. To now it's like are you, are you really the, the, the role of operations is more of like, you know, a true COO of the law department. And, you know, to be a true COO of the law department, like, you've gotta be equipped with that, um, with, with that data to help your GC make those kinds of strategic, uh, decisions about how to, how to, how to run and structure your department. Right. The legal team must be seen as a s- as a business enabler, right? Because, like, in most of, of the time, other departments don't like to touch base with the legal team because they know if they're on the sales side, that if whenever the, the, the legal team touches a contract, it, it's gonna mean that it's gonna take couple more weeks just to review the documents and for the negotiation, right? And the, and most of the problems that are, that we've seen is that they don't want to talk with, uh, um, with the legal team unless it's strictly necessary or when they have two days, uh, to sign that contract, right?

7:58And, uh, I think it will be interesting maybe for the people that maybe they, they, they've heard about the legal ops and with, with, with this ex- extraordinary e- explanation that, that you gave. But can you give us, like, w- some e- examples or m- or, or maybe some success cases on how the interaction of the legal de- department was before they start working with you and the after? Like, what should they look for when they, uh, um, uh, have these legal ops, uh, implemented correctly? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, um, you know, let, let me give you, like, kind of one, one, um, example that just pops to mind, right? Like, I, you know, it, it's not great, it's not great pizza in my opinion, but, like, you know, a lot of people know Domino's, right? The Domino's- Right... Pizza, right?

8:52Well, you know, Domino's, like, what's really cool about Domino's, like, if you've got the app, right? Or even, like, you know, DoorDash, right? Like, you can kind of see real time, like, what is... Like, "Where, where's my food? Oh, the driver, you know, got to this location. The food's ready. Driver picked it up, and now they're, you know, headed to my s- my, my house," right? Like, "We're gonna be able to chow in, you know, 10 minutes," right? Um, and, and just to kind of use that example with, with legal, um, if you think about, like, you know, legal being a, an enabler of the business, right? They, um, it, it's kind of the same situation, right? Where th- their, the, the, the business, you know, needs something from the legal team, whether it's a, you know, a contract or, you know, a, an opinion on something. You know, they're reaching out trying to get something. And y- you know, to be able to provide, um, the, the visibility to, um, the business, uh, to the business owners, like, where something sits kind of real time with, um, with the legal department, similar to, like, the, you know, the, the pizza tracker that you have on your phone.

10:12That, you know, that, that goes a long way, right? And s- and so, so the business... You know, then you can start to set and manage expectations. Y- you know, 'cause everything, everything, when somebody wants something, everything's urgent, right? Um, but you can- Right... start to really, like, prioritize, like, "Hey, you know, with this kind of request, here's what you can expect. Like, you're gonna get a response in, you know, this amount of time. You can check in the status of it. You can check in, like, you know, who, who it's been, um, who it's been assigned to." So that's, um, one, um, simple way that I've seen and, and I mean simple way, it's, it's, it's not always simple to implement as you guys, as you guys know. But it's one way that, um, has been really effective in terms of, uh, building that, that bridge between, you know, the business and, and, and the legal function. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, Dan, I mean, obviously over the past couple years, I think that's become even more important because everybody's working remote now.

11:14You, you can't go knock on somebody's office door and- Exactly... ask them for an update on something. And, and, you know, like Pepe said, um, other departments usually are, are a little skittish to, uh, to, to shoot an email over to, uh, the general counsel. So I think that that new role that's, that's formed and, and, you know, I mean, we've been in the space for probably going on four years, and I think even in that time, uh, we, we've seen it evolve, you know, extremely rapidly. So it's, it's, uh, it's crazy to see how the, how the space is growing and progressing, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that was a great comparison. Um, everybody wants to know where, where their food is, and they wanna know now, so, uh- Yeah... I think the same way with, the same way with their contracts, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, you know, let's, let's move u- move on a little bit forward and, and talk more so about, um, you know, the CLM implementation And, and how you start those, those projects. Uh, you know, we've talked with other folks and they say, you know, and it sounds like the same thing.

12:07Yeah, right, you gotta make sure that you have the groundwork done before you start an implementation or it's, you know, technology is not gonna be the answer to, to your problems if, um, if, if you don't figure things out before, if you don't have a framework before you put the, the software in place. So I, I would, you know, typically when you start these types of projects, are, are you starting with, uh, a single location, a single department? Uh, what, what does that kinda look like? Yeah. So I, um, y- y- you know, the stats are, like, eye-watering in the CLM space, right? Um, we've, we've, we've done a lot of polling, uh, with our own client base. Um, there's, there's a lot of, you know, these kinds of statistics that are out there when you look at independent bodies like the WCC or Gartner. Um, a- and, like, the, the stats like that some crazy number, like north of 90% of CLM implementations, you know, don't meet expectations, right? And deliver the- Yeah...

13:06outcomes that they're, they're, uh, uh, that, that the business is looking for. Now, as, you know, implementers yourselves, I'm sure you guys fall into the 10% of, like, you know, successful implementations. Um, but I- Of course... you know, I, uh, but I can see how this happens because I, I would say, like, one of the biggest failures that I've had in my, um, career that is a, a good learning experience as well, was when we tried to do a global CLM implementation across GE and nine different business units. And, um, so, so this is a, you know, a very important and pertinent, um, question. And, uh, you know, so, so I think, uh, Marc, in terms of where to start, um, you know, I, I, and, and you kind of alluded to this, right? That I, I think before you even get into what's the, what, you know, department or, um, you know, region, you know, before you even get into that conversation, y- you really have to have, um, the vision for, um, w- what you're trying to do with the CLM, and what's the stakeholder map look like as well.

14:20Because you guys know, like, the tough thing about contracting is that sometimes it's not, like, just owned by legal, you know? Or it's often not owned by legal, right? But, you know, procurement teams have important roles. The business has a role. The, you know, sales ops team has a role. And- Right... you know, so really laying out, like, that stakeholder map and with that stakeholder group, you know, really understanding, like, okay, what, guys, does, you know, 12, you know, 12 months look like? What does, you know, 18 months look like from now? Um, and getting the stakeholders to, to buy in and to collaborate on that vision, um, is, is super important, right? Um, and then, uh, you know, and then I think that that really starts to, once you've done that, that starts to lead to this question that you asked, Marc, which is where, where, where is the logical starting point?

15:20'Cause you're not gonna take, especially in big companies, right? You're not gonna take this whole thing on at once. Um, so what, what we usually try to do is, is look at really how are they, you know, how are, how is the team structured? So you've got a, you know, if you've got a global organization, is it structured by region, by, you know, business line? And, and where are, um, like, where are contracts siloed? Like, you know, so, so is there, is there a place, um, in the business that really has clear ownership of, uh, you know, the, the, the RACI's well defined. There's, you know, clear ownership of, you know, okay, you know, here when the request comes in, who's responsible for, you know, getting the initial draft out. If it comes in, who's doing the review? You know, all the way to who, whose responsibility is it to, you know, store it in the repository and, you know, tag the associated data with it, right?

16:22And so, so really kind of understanding, um, where are the areas where you've got well-defined ownership of the, the, the process and those stakeholders, you know, participating in the, in the process. That's, to me, um, kind of the most, most logical place to start. Right. And I would say that it is very important to know how they diff- what's the difference between all the, the regions, right? Because maybe there are some regulatory, right, uh, requirements that have not, have, are not necessary for, let's say, for North America, yeah, right? And when, when you go to the offices in, in South America, maybe they request more information, like corporate documents, because, uh, uh, they are used to always, uh, request the bylaws of their company before they start working with a, uh, with a new vendor, right? Or, or with a, with a new customer. And we, we've been talking a lot about this and, uh, we, uh, we had a, an- another guest in our show, Tom Fuse, who likes to call this the phase zero, right?

17:30Like, how do you have, do you, you first need to work what, on the processes, right, that you need to implement in the system. Because there's a huge mistake that companies do, is that they just jump in directly with the technology, but they have no idea what they need to automate. And what happens is that most of the time, if they don't have defined processes, what they're going to do is just they're going to automate broken processes, and you will never see the e- efficiency of spending thousands of dollars in, in a, in a piece of software. And, um, there's a lot of different softwares right now. I think CLM is one of the hottest trends in the legal tech industry right now. So do you have any-... recommendation or what's like the one big mistake you commonly see, uh, on the originations when choosing or im- implementing that solution? Yeah, I mean, just to build off what you mentioned, right? Um, I, I, I think that, a- and it kind of goes to this, this point that I was making before, which is at the beginning of the project, like, really focus on the outcomes, right?

18:41And when I say focus on the outcomes, like, what, what really, um, like, w- write down, like, what, what does at the end of this, like, what does this system really need to produce, right? And, and I, I, I, I kind of use the, like, the five whys rule, um, and, and, and use that to kind of work backwards, right? So, like, just an example would be, okay, I wanna track approvals. Okay, why do you wanna track approvals? Well, because I need to show, you know, I need to be able to show an audit trail, you know, for this, you know, particular regulator. Okay, well, you know, why, why do you have to do that? Oh, well, because, you know, there's this one section, and if I don't, you know... You see where I'm going with this. Like, so if you start to ask, like, the five whys of, of this and kind of work backwards, it's really illuminating because then you start to realize, like, okay, well, maybe why am I over-engineering this?

19:39Like, why do I really need... I don't need to track 30 approvals. What I really need to track is like, you know, two approvals, right? And, and so, so you start to, if you, if you really, um, start from the end and figure out what you wanna achieve, and then work backwards, I think that's, um, I'm gonna give you a couple lessons. So you asked for one, but I'm gonna give you a couple. That's, so that's one thing, right? Um, is- Right... is, is starting with, um, you know, starting with the, with the outcomes and working backwards. The, the other is stakeholder, um, engagement and ownership piece is, is also I, I, I, I, I see where, um, people go wrong all the time. I, I was in a client, um, meeting once that was, it was very, um, it was very awkward because they brought us in, and they brought us in and w- and we were, we were with the legal team, and the legal team had kind of brought us in to, you know, advise them on this, this CLM initiative. Like, first meeting that we had, it was, it was with, um, with some of their, their, their business counterparts, and they got up and they were all excited, and they were talking about, you know, the project and what they were doing.

20:56And this, like, pretty senior person in the business got up and just went to town in terms of just saying, like, "I don't understand why, you know, legal's owning this. You know, we've already been doing ch, this, this, this, and this." You know, the p- like, the, it, it was, and it was embarrassing for us. It was embarrassing for them. I mean, I, I, I think that, um, but it, it shows the point that there's a lot of different stakeholders in this process, and a lot of people that think that they own the output of contracts, right? So a big mistake I see is that you just don't have true buy-in, uh, across the, the right groups that need to be bought in. And then what's an important thing about that, too, is then the leadership, you know, the leadership buy-in, like, you really need that stakeholder, um, that senior stakeholder that's going to make this a priority and push people, right? Because as you guys know, there's a big, you know, change aspect of this. It impacts a lot of functions, and you gotta, you know, if you don't have that, like, true executive sponsor as well, that's, that's a challenge.

22:02So executive sponsorship and then that stakeholder engagement is another really big, really big, um, um, component. And I'll give you a last one. I'll give you three instead of one. So then the third one I see a lot is, um, and this is to your, your process management, uh, point, and that's, you know, it's, it's not just about, it's not just about setting up the process first and then overlaying technology. I think a lot of big companies struggle with the, the actual management of the process and the discipline to use the process as well, and the understanding that not every process is, it, not every contract process is created equal, right? Like, your, the, the, the 3% of your agreements that are driving 50% of your revenue and, you know, are 80 pages long and take, you know, six months to negotiate, that's gonna be a different, you know, process and a different way that you're using technology- Right... than the, the, the 2,000 business associate agreements that you're, you're, you're spitting out every year that were, you know, three points are getting negotiated and, you know, 98% of the time they're on your paper, right?

23:15So it's also, you know, understanding the differences, right, of the processes, but also then having the discipline to manage that process once that new process is in place. And, and so Dan, to, to touch on, you know, a couple th- I think there's a l- a lot of great stuff there. I was trying to write as fast as I could to, to keep up. You know, I, I think, um, one of the things that I'm interested in, and I think that folks that, you know, might be out there in this situation where either, A, they're going through an evaluation process or they know they, they need to go out and find, uh, a, a CLM tool. You know, let's say that you maybe, a- and, you know, legal, legal's budgets, I mean, I think they're becoming bigger, but, but at the same time, I think a lot of organizations are pulling money from procurement and sales to, uh, get better, um, CLM systems in place. You know, when you, you start to do your research, there's, there's definitely different types of tools on the market, and, uh, when somebody thinks it might be a simple solution, you know, it ends up being something much more complex So, so when these organizations are going out and, you know, they, they maybe find a handful of vendors that they, they really like, they, they are a little bit more complex than they were thinking.

24:22A- and then they find out that, hey, we, we do need to slow this down, right? Before we get technology, maybe we need to bring in another consulting firm to, to actually help us with the, the framework here and, and building out the workflows and understanding who should be involved. And, you know, a, a 20 or $40,000 project turns into $100,000 project. How, how do you work with, um, you know, your customers to show the, the folks in the business that, "Hey, this is what we need to do to make this successful. If not, you know, we're probably gonna end up looking for something else, another software solution that probably won't do anything in a year or two because this won't be successful"? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, um, it, it's, it's, it's a great point, Marc. And it's like, why, you know, it just raises the question, too, like at the end of the day, why are you implementing technology, right? Like, what's, like, what's the point of the technology?

25:13And the point, like, uh, the way that I see it, and there's probably more, but just in, in real simple terms, I see it as like, you know, you're either trying to, like, improve the employee experience, right? Like, I'm working here, and I'm trying to do my job, and it's just like this, you know, this is enabling me to do my job, um, in a way that makes me more effective and, you know, makes me wanna come to work, you know, each day, um, uh, a little, uh, a little bit more, right? So, like, that employee experience piece is a big part of it. And then I think there's the, the, you know, the cost aspect, right? Like, you're trying to get some, you know, value, um, from, you know, this, this technology. So we try to, like, what, you know what I, what we really sit down and, and work with our clients on is like, what really is the, the, the motivating drivers for you, and how does your, how does your business, um, how does your business value those, right?

26:16In some cases, it's like if you think of, like, a software company that's growing really fast, like they're just trying to get contracts done, right? So it's like, to them, it's like speed and like, you know, how, how efficient are we getting at, you know, um, producing widgets, right? That, that, that- Right... that's what's holding our business back, and the faster that we can do that, the more revenue we're gonna have this year in a growth company, right? And how do you, you know, how do you help them quantify that? Like, what happens if, you know, you can get an agreement done in five days instead of, you know, 14 days? You know, there's also looking at it, like especially with a lot of big organizations, what we see is that they've got all of these different, you know, they've got just tons of legacy contracts, and they have no idea of, you know, what's in them really, right? Where, where does it, where does it make sense, and can you build a business case for, hey, you know, we're gonna move 100,000 documents into this repository. But you know what?

27:16In that effort to move 100,000 documents into the repository and to spend the money to make sure that we don't have to move 100,000 documents into the repository three years from now, which is why we're gonna implement the tech, we're gonna look for these like, you know, four data points that if we look at them in the contract, then we're gonna be able to exercise COLA provisions. We're gonna be able to, you know, maybe on the buy side, like identify opportunities where, you know, we're not, you know, taking advantage of service credits that have been, you know, provided to us. So, so the other thing is we really if, if we, we help that, that kind of value erosion, um, concept, we really work with our clients on as well. Like, where can you really, uh, make the case that there's, there's value that's being lost because, you know, you don't have transparency into the, you know, your contract portfolio, right? You know, that, that's a big, um, that's a big theme.

28:16Um, and then, and, and then some of it too is just the, um, people are willing to pay too for, like, businesses value, like, you know, the, the avoidance of risk, of compliance, right? Like, so that's the other thing that we see. It's harder to quantify, but like, you know, I think a lot of CFOs in particular, when they're looking at these projects, they get, like, "Okay, if I don't have, if I don't have like a, you know, line of sight into, you know, these different things, then that's creating risk for our business," right? And, and I see that, m- you know, manifest itself in, you know, commercial disputes that we have, different litigation, just kind of, you know, m- missed, you know, missed forecasting, things like that. And there's a, there's a intrinsic value, um, to that as well that I think that CFOs in particular really value.

29:13So those are, those are some of the things, but definitely making the, uh, you, you, you gotta, you gotta make the case, right? Right. And I think that we talk about a lot of very important points right now on how to make this implementation successful, right? It's not just about the technology. It's about the processes. It's about your documents. What are the key points, KPIs that, that you wanna track? What's the whole goal, right, of implementing this? Because, uh, as you said, legal is not the owner of the contracts. Actually, I like to say that CLM is, is not for the lawyers. It's for the procurement, so they can close, uh, the business and bring the products from other vendors. It's, it's for sales because they can have a playbook on how to close a deal faster and how they can get cash incomes, uh, faster into their companies. And let's say we have all of those already clear, right?

30:11And I would say that one, the next step now that you have all of these, uh, clear and over that, that table is how can you create that discipline- Right? Of following all those processes and keeping a track on all those numbers so you can know the, uh, if the implementation of this CLM software will be successful. And that's, that's, like, the main issue of the adoption of new tools. And most of the time, even if when you spend a lot of time and money to implement these softwares, most of the time, well, I wouldn't say most of the time, but, but in a lot of the cases, right, they just don't, don't use it because most of the lawyers are used to do all, everything at work, sending emails, and that's it, right? They, they, they don't wanna learn how to use a new tool. Uh, how have you tackled this big issue, uh, Dan, on, on the, the adoption of new legal tools? Yeah.

31:08It's, I, I mean, you know, like, it's kind of a s- a, like, a selfish plug for our business right now, right? Like, that's one of the reasons I think that our platform is growing is because one of the things that we're doing when we're onboarding and training new, like, contract negotiators is that, hey, like, part of your job is not just, like, negotiating a contract. Like, part of your job is, like, we need to maintain this information on what the status of the, you know, agreement and negotiation is, and you have to keep this current. You know, the expectation for certain agreements is that, you know, once a week you're providing a, you know, narrative update on where that, you know, contract stands so that, you know, the, the, the business owner's got visibility into what's happening with the negotiation, right? Y- Things like that, right? That, that part of the job is, is the, the, the maintenance of, of this information that is gonna help ultimately you, you know, run a, you know, more successful, um, contracting operation, and that's a discipline that has to be, like, taught, installed, monitored. And it's not to say that you can't do that as well in, um, an in-house environment. Surely you can, right?

32:29It's just that's been one of the things that we've really focused on when we're training our teams that are, you know, doing, you know, contracts for, for other organizations. But for, you know, as we're advising in-house teams, it really is about that. It's like, it's, it's... You've gotta, you've gotta invest in, like, the operations of, of contracting as well, which is like, you know, is somebody doing, like, data audits that, you know, they're looking back and saying, "Hey, you know, you're not maintaining this information," or, "You're not, like... We're not seeing these, you know, go through the system." And is somebody... I- and is, is, is the, is the person that's not doing that, is there some accountability they don't do that, right? And, a- so it's that... It's kind of that whole, that whole, like, culture shift of, like, changing the way that, um, you know, changing just a little bit the way that, you know, people, uh, people work is really important that.

33:29And, and, and also that's to where your point is, like, you can help them. You can, you can help that process by making the, you know, the workflow as, as painless as possible, right? Um, and, and that's where, you know, I think a lot of people over-engineer these systems, Pepe, right? Like, they... You know, when you, when you're, you know, requiring something, somebody to upload every, you know, every time there's a, you know, a, a turn of paper and you've gotta upload a new version into a CLM, and you've gotta track 17 approvals, like, for every contract in the system, like, stuff starts to break down. You gotta maintain who's responsible, like, on the other end for those approvals. Like, so, so it's just, it's, it's trying to simplify the, you know, the, the process as much as possible. So when we're advising clients, we really... You know, that's the other thing. It's like, you know, keep it simple. Like, really or, like, what are those key things that, you know, you really need to change?

34:29And then I can't emphasize enough just that, that ongoing operations and that change management component's huge. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, Dan, we, we covered a lot today. I, I think, uh, we, we scratched the surface on, on more than a, a couple of topics. You know, I mean, from how to implement, what to do before implementing, user adoption, you know, I, I think these are all things that, uh, any organization should be considering, um, when they're out there searching for a tool or, or even if they're in the process of implementing a tool. You know, it's never too late to kind of back up and, and, uh, look at, at what you're doing to, to make sure that it's going to be a success, and ultimately you are gonna have that user adoption so that everybody's happy when you get the tool in place. But, uh, I, you know, I think we could talk about this all day, but we, we try to keep these episodes a little short. I, I think this one is, uh, is gonna be right on, on pace. Um, so Dan, thanks for joining us today. Uh, if anybody wants to learn more about you or UnitedLex, uh, is, is LinkedIn the best place to do that? Yeah, sure. Okay. All right. Hey, well, we appreciate you coming on.

35:27Um, it's great talking with you and, uh, hopefully we'll, uh, we'll have you on as a guest again. Yeah. Thanks a lot, guys. It was great. All right. Thanks a lot, everyone. Thanks, everybody.