Evolving Legal Landscapes: The Impact on Service Delivery and Legal Ops with Monica Zent

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0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes. Today, joining us is the founder and CEO at ZentLaw, Monica Zent. So Monica, thank you so much for being here. Uh, we're really excited to, to start this conversation. Before I th- kick things over to Pepe so he can give us a bit more on what we're gonna be chatting about, uh, we'd love to hear a little bit more about you and, and how you started ZentLaw. Sure, great. Thank you, Marc and Pepe. It's great to be here and speaking with you at Contract Heroes. Well, uh, I founded ZentLaw over 20 years ago, uh, as one of the earliest ALSPs. At the time, there really were no ALSPs in the marketplace, so it was really cutting a new path in the legal, the legal industry, and, uh, letting people know what could be done in terms of service delivery options and models, uh, around subscriptions and dedicated support and so forth.

1:02So it was something that was new at the time, and, uh, it was a market need that I felt could be filled. And so it was that kind of classic concept of find a need, fill a need, and we've been growing and building ever since. Awesome. So Monica, I mean, it's been a two decades already since you founded the Zent Law firm. So I, I would say this is interesting because, I mean, I mean, we've been talking with a, with a lot of folks that, uh, have been our guests recently. And back then there was no terms such as A- ALSP, of course, legal ops. Nobody knew what was legal ops. You know, uh, ALSP, of course, is growing a lot now. We have its own ranking, uh, chambers and partner, you know? So it's good to see that, you know, it's now people and, and companies are understanding, right? Why are they useful for them? It's like a d- completely different model than the regular law firm. But can you tell us, before we jump to our favorite topic, which is, you know, contract management, like what were like some of the pain points that you were seeing back then when you decided to, to start, uh, Zent Law?

2:10Yeah. Well, I mean, um, and I've been in the legal industry for quite a long time, so previously, earlier in my career, I had been an entrepreneur in different areas, and then also had practiced in Big Law and in-house. So I'd kind of been around these different environments, and also on the receiving end of legal services from a conventional model like the Big Law model. So that was kind of the impetus for, uh, creating ZentLaw and creating this alternative services delivery model. At the time, some of the pain points were, like any organization or company that's kind of carving a new path or developing or delivering a new product or service, you know, it's sort of those usual pain points of trying to educate the marketplace, trying to help people understand what you offer, what is the value proposition, why is it good for them, why should they consider this? And so there was a lot of groundwork that I had to lay early on in the business to be able to, to do that effectively and to grow and to build the relationships. And then, of course, doing a lot of thought leadership in the last 10 years, you know, writing and speaking on these topics.

3:07That has also helped to drive better understanding and appreciation for what an ALSP is, what we can do, what we can offer. Even the concept of legal operations, and I know contracting, which we'll be talking about, I mean, we have been doing this at ZentLaw for a really long time, since before legal ops was called legal ops or it was a thing. And, um, and so it's really great to see that kind of s- part of the industry take off too, because that's also supported the kind of better understanding and, and reception for ALSPs, alternative service delivery models, as well as sort of these other, these other, um, aspects that we'll touch on around legal ops and what legal ops can do. Awesome. And, and do you think there were any specific industry that maybe was like, wanted to see this, how this new business model worked, or it was like spreaded all around different industry? Like, because I know this is something really hard to be like a evangelist, right? Because you gotta teach them, like why they need this, these kind of services.

4:09So I'm, I'm just curious, like when you think about, you know, innovation, you think about software companies. But maybe when you started, like did, did you see like any particular industry was more eager to move forward with this new business model? Yeah. Well, it's a great question, Pepe. Um, I have been an evangelist in the legal industry for a long time. Uh, it's a role that I enjoy, uh, but it's, it has its challenges, of course, as you know. And, uh, it, it's been interesting. I will say that there were some companies that were in sort of industries you'd expect that would... You know, were kind of early adopters of our model, uh, and those were primarily in tech. Uh, tech has often been an industry associated with kind of progressive thought, forward-looking, maybe more willing to take chances. So we did develop early tech clients. But also, there were some very conventional industries that you would never expect, um, that actually had more traditional corporate cultures, like for instance in insurance or utilities.

5:08Uh, you know, these organizations that had more conventional corporate cultures, but they valued, of course, the bottom, bottom line, and they were open and receptive to other alternative service delivery models that could help drive greater cost savings. So, you know, it was kind of this interesting disparity between sort of, sort of the most cutting edge types of companies and the companies that you would not associate with being the most cutting edge. And then, of course, as time has gone on, you know, we've moved through different industries and, you know, a lot of industries in the middle there. But, uh, it's, you know, that's... It's, it's an interesting question around adoption. Yeah. You know, I think we see s- a lot of the, a lot of similar things in, in different types of organizations. I mean, we, we work with industries of all shapes and sizes and organizations of all shapes and sizes, but, um, you know, there, there definitely are those in tech and, and in healthcare that we, we, we work with more than others. But what was the, the path to adoption with maybe some of those, you know, the insurance or the utilities, um, verticals that you worked with?

6:05Or maybe there's others, too, but y- was there more of a, a need for an education at the beginning of the, those conversations versus working with organizations that, you know, let's say were in, uh, in soft- or were more familiar with, you know, your types of services or technology? Yeah, there was. There was more education that was needed. You know, it took longer, the cycle times were longer in terms of sort of bringing those relationships to fruition. So definitely, you know, it, it could take a while, and that was not, that was certainly not uncommon. But eventually it, it, it could be done. It just takes time. Do you have any tips for, for maybe there's organizations out there right now that are kind of evaluating, you know, these, these types of ser- services and, and looking to outsource this, but maybe the, uh, internal champion that's trying to drive this is struggling to, to get others on board? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. Um, it is really hard sometimes to figure out, you know, sort of how can that champion get traction with what they're trying to bring on within a company.

7:02I mean, of course, you know, some of the most basic are areas around, you know, cost savings and budget. That's a big driver, especially now as a lot of corporate department budgets are getting cut or revisited. Uh, but certainly it's not just that. It's also about quality. It's about understanding and kind of removing stereotypes and understanding that the quality of the services that you can receive from an LSP rival that of any kind of white shoe law firm or other organization. Uh, and so, you know, you can get the quality that you're accustomed to because many of the people on our teams are coming from those organizations. You know, they've worked in those environments, so they, they know what those environments are like and, and how... require of them in terms of quality. And so you, you can also rest assured around the quality front, and that, that is sometimes a question. Uh, sometimes it's also, uh, maybe confusion around what an LSP can do. There are different types of LSPs. Our model at ZentLaw, we focus on, uh, subscriptions, secondments, sort of the, again, dedicated support models and, uh, other types of offerings that we have, such as our DEI and culture refresh, which is a new offering to help enhance corporate cultures within legal departments.

8:12Legal ops consulting is something we've always been part of, and we also have some key partners we work with on a lot of that. A, a lot of what we do around that is, uh, of course, related to the contracting space and, and then some other flex plans that we offer around flexible support needs that, that companies have that maybe don't fall squarely within a dedicated support or a subscription model. So that's a bit about, you know, sort of what we offer, but there are different varieties of LSPs, and in terms of the, the resources and the teams that are, I mean, attorneys, contracts managers, paralegals, legal operations professionals, compliance, and le- other legal specialists. So sometimes it's a misunderstanding on what does that involve, who are the... who's the talent too. I mean, we get this sometimes too where they think it's just, oh, they're just people doing document review in India, and it's like, well, no, that's, that's one variety of an LSP, and it certainly serves a purpose, but that's not necessarily every LSP. And so it's sometimes it's educating the market, helping them better understand what, what an LSP can do for them and, and many times how we can augment their existing, uh, support models that they may have with, let's say, other outside counsel.

9:20They may use outside counsel for other functions, big ticket litigation as an example, and, and where we can come in to s- to augment that function. Right. And shifting to contract management, Monica, like, what are the, like, the main pain points that you have seen with your customers, like, when they're trying to fix, when they look at their contracting processes? Yeah. Well, we've seen... I've certainly... we've been around contracting a long time, and have done this a long time with companies, uh, because we work so closely with so many different legal departments. So we do get to see a lot of what happens out there in the marketplace, and a lot of different challenges that companies run into in terms of what they're doing or what they could be doing better around contracting. I mean, one, a lot of times you'll have issues around contracts are kind of getting stalled, or it's the cycle time is... you know, the, the contract to close cycle time is too long and too cumbersome, and that, that is a common problem.

10:17Other times we'll see scenarios, or many times it's in companion with that, we'll see too many stakeholders or not the right stakeholders, or the lack of visibility or too much visibility, or, you know, who's involved. And, yeah, all of these, we've just, we've seen it all, basically. But those types of scenarios can also bog down a contracting process. We also see untapped opportunities. That can also present its own challenges, whether it's not harnessing the data around contracts that you need for compliance or even cost savings or, in some cases, revenue generation, not being able to tap into the details and the information in a contract and, and harness what's happening. And a lot of times that can create a whole domino effect of issues within a company, whether it's not managing your renewals or missing opportunities with customers because you missed kind of renewal and upsell windows and licensing windows, or even sometimes audit opportunities. Uh, on the vendor side, there can be a host of areas that can cause a, a domino effect of compliance issues and sometimes costs, even fines, if you don't have, let's say, data security and privacy flow down terms that are important to your business or gaps around your supply chain, uh, integrity and practices, and that can cause issues.

11:27So there are just a host of issues from a contracting process that is maybe cumbersome, uh, has the wrong stakeholders, lack of, lacks data, lacks organization. Maybe there's not, no process or there isn't process around certain things. So we, we've definitely seen a lot. I could talk on th- that one a lot, but, um- ... there, there are certainly many issues. Um- Right. There's a lot of things that you can improve, uh, especially with companies that they don't have their process clear, right? So Monica, like, can you give us an practical or real example on how's that, let's call it, like, the customer journey? Like, they know they got a mess with their contracting processes, and how do you work together with their stakeholders in order to give them, you know, advice on how they can, you know, cut spending, uh, or save money there? Yeah. Well, uh, i- it varies with every, every client, of course, but- You know, the first thing you start with is, of course, an assessment, right?

12:21Kind of kicking the tires to see what are we doing today, what is currently happening, and looking at what that existing process is, or if there... Many times there is no process, or the process is broken or flawed. So looking at and doing an assessment first, because you've gotta get a sense of what's happening right now. And then identifying from that assessment what are the pain points. Are there bottlenecks? Is it, is the cycle time too long? Uh, are there too many stakeholders? Are the wrong stakeholders being involved? Are we missing the boat when it comes to data, key facts, and information? Do certain people that need visibility into those contracting elements, are they not getting that, and do they need that? And so kind of after the assessment, understanding what are th- what are those key pain points for that organization. And then from there, identifying, okay, how can we solve these pain points? What does that desired future to contracting state need to look like? What should it look like for this company?

13:13What's realistic and achievable right now, and maybe what's realistic and achievable maybe two or three years from now, right? So sometimes things have to go in stages, too, and sometimes companies try to bite off too much. So it's really looking at, looking at that. I would go a step back, too, and also say that we, we would al- probably the very first thing before doing an assessment is asking our client do they have somebody in legal operations, right? I mean, sometimes they do, but if they don't, that would be one of the first things we would suggest is either make that internal legal ops hire, bring on that first head of legal ops. Or if you don't have the budget or you're not able to do that at that time, you could leverage Zentlaw to provide and fill that need to get somebody, some boots on the ground there on the contracting front to help support and begin to create some cultural buy-in within the company around these contracting process changes. So having a legal ops function, having folks in legal ops that are dedicated to contracting is really important to support what you're trying to do on the contracting front.

14:12And then, of course, doing an assessment, identifying the gaps, areas for improvement. And then from there building that future state plan. And then, of course, the execution of, of that comes with whatever is in that plan and, and I'm sure we can talk about that later. Yeah, and I, I think that's something that sometimes a lot of organizations miss is you need to have that process and those people in place before you put technology in place. A- and, and I love the, you know, the phased approach as well. You know, it's, it's great that people wanna get everything done in, in one singular swing of the bat, but we rarely see, uh, organizations hit a home run when, when they do do it that way. It is, yeah. For us too. I mean, it's, it's just, it's just more realistic to kind of phase things out a little bit, and also to build, again, that desired future state for now and what's achievable, and then maybe two years from now or a year from now, and then, and so forth. And we've found that to be very effective for sure. Right. And I really wanna go a little bit deeper on the execution part, like once you have a plan there.

15:09But maybe for the people that are still struggling, like why they need a legal ops, like can you give us some examples of specific a- activities that somebody in your team performs when they start working with your, with your customers, talking about contract management? Yeah. Well, it varies. I mean, at Zentlaw in t- in terms of our dedicated support model, we do have legal ops folks at all different levels, uh, that we can provide to our clients to work with them directly as a dedicated resource in the legal ops function, so that whether it's contracting or, uh, spend management or a head of legal ops or, you know, other types of functions and levels of expertise. So we kind of have all of that. But in terms of what you're asking about, you know, what does that legal ops resource or what can they do, I mean, there's a lot that a legal ops resource can do. Uh, for instance, since we're talking about contracting, we'll just focus on that.

15:59In the contracting realm, if you have a great legal ops contracting resource, they can begin to do some of that for you, whether coaching through us or one of our legal ops partners, or sometimes just on their own. But coming in and doing that assessment, building that kind of future state, taking some interviews, identifying where are our gaps, what could we do, be, be doing better. A lot of times that also means talking with business teams, right? Outside the legal team. What does your sales team think of the contracting process? What does your procurement team think of the contracting process? Your finance team. You may have your marketing team, you need to f- talk with those folks. So talking with some of these different teams to get a sense of what they think of the contracting process and where they're involved, or if they're involved at all and how that works. And then also identifying areas. I mean, there, there are lots, again, lots of opportunities for what a legal ops person can do, but other areas could be identifying what can be automated, what can be peeled off the legal team. Are there opportunities for automation? A good and classic example of this is like a company's NDAs, right? Uh, being able to sort of automate that, make it self-service.

17:03Um, provide a self-service tool to your company so people don't have to be constantly going to legal for an NDA. And then there may be corner cases that have to get some legal eyes on it at some point, but in general, that is a process that you could automate, and many legal ops folks can start with some of that low-hanging fruit to automate and drive some initial kind of quick wins for the company in terms of cost and time savings. And then from there continue to build. But again, it, it's very company specific, but those are just some high-level ideas. No, that's, that's perfect. And when it comes to the execution, right, of the assessment that, that you give to your customers, like what are like the main challenges there? Because I think that there's a lot of change management, too, right? Because now you, they got a different guy or, uh, you know, person just inside their, their company and, you know, like asking them questions about their contracting processes.

17:59Like how does it look like, uh, when they, when they start working with your customers? Yeah. It, it... I know. You, you've hit the nail on the head with sort of change management, right? And, uh, I mean, we are, again, and it's like as you were saying, Marc, too, that adage of people, process, and technology, and it is really true. I mean, we always tell clients you do have to start with the people. You have to start with what are your people currently doing, what are their pain points, what are the gaps, what do people wish was better? But then also bearing in mind that you are dealing with people, right? And you're dealing with human psychology and, and there's an element of that that has to be considered. You know, if you're going there and asking them what they do all day and what do you do... I mean, people might get concerned. Some people might perceive, "Oh, no, is my job on the line," right? "Why are they asking me so many questions? What's going on?" So sometimes it's having some messaging around that. That, hey, we're gonna be looking at streamlining our workflows, we're gonna be looking at what we can do to move you up the value chain, legal team or lawyers, and how we can do that. Mm-hmm.

18:56And so we're gonna be talking with folks about what they're currently doing to figure out where are the gaps, where are the areas that we can make things better. But also during that process, you figure out who are the folks within your corporate legal team that are more receptive to change, and you're always gonna have those folks that aren't, or you're gonna have those naysayers, and you're gonna have those people that are resistant. And sometimes they can have good observations that are valuable, and other times maybe they don't. But it, it just kind of also comes down to revisiting sometimes what that team looks like. It is really hard in organizations to drive cultural change. I mean, we see this as well even with the DEI and culture refresh work at the Ze- on, you know, on Zentlaw o- o- on our side with that solution. Uh, it is hard, and that's why we built that solution, to help augment what clients are doing on that front. Sometimes they need an outside consultant to come in and help get some of those initiatives off the ground. So yeah, you know, even when it comes to contracting and building in efficiencies and something that's helpful, it, it, it can be hard with change management.

19:57And so it's really goes back to understanding what is the corporate culture, what's realistic, what's achievable, what, what are we trying to accomplish? And then, uh, I'm a big believer in, again, the right messaging, the right approach, the right people to kind of carry that out, the right personalities who can, who can do that in the best way possible, and it, it is, it's all really important. Yeah, I mean, you know, like we always say, right, two, no, no two organizations are ever the same, and, and you need to look at all of the, the folks in the ecosystem. You need to look at the pieces of technology that you're already using, how are they gonna be, uh, receptive to change management, and, and really need to have an understanding of what they're looking for in their goals and outcomes, uh, before, you know, like I said, or, or we always say, like jumping to technology. So Monica, this has been a, a fantastic conversation. We really thank you so much for coming on. Uh, if folks want to, uh, connect with you or, or learn more about Zent, where's the best place to do that? Yeah, I mean, they can find me on LinkedIn, uh, or of course visit zentlaw.com, but any, any one of those methods, um, certainly works. Awesome.

21:01Well, thanks so much for joining us, and thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Contract Heroes. Thank you. It was great to speak with you guys today. You too. Thank you. This episode of the Contract Heroes is sponsored by Koho Consulting. Koho helps organizations of all shapes and sizes find, implement, and manage their chosen CLM tool. Whether your project is buy or sell side led, Koho can help you navigate the waters of the CLM space to make sure that you're getting a product that's going to fit like a glove for years to come. If you'd like to learn more about Koho, visit their website at C-O-H-O consulting.com.