How Stanford's Codex is shaping the future of law with Roland Vogl

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. And today on the show we've got Roland Vogl. Roland is, uh, joining us from the Stanford, uh, Law program. Uh, he's the executive director over there. Uh, before I flip things over to Pepe to give us a, a little bit of an understanding of what we're gonna be chatting about today, uh, Roland, just wanted to allow you to, to make a quick introduction. And, uh, thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, Roland Vogl. I'm executive director of CodeX, the Stanford Center for Legal Informatics, which is a joint center between the Stanford Law School and the Computer Science department. And our mission is to bring information technology to the legal system to make it more efficient, more efficient for all stakeholders, as we like to point out. But yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. So, thanks, Roland.

1:02It's, uh, um, amazing to, to, to, to have you here on the podcast. And we have a lot of things that we wanted to, to talk about. Uh, we want to talk about, of course, a, a month ago, uh, Stanford, uh, hosted the Future of Law Conference. It was on April 7th, almost a month ago, and, uh, I'm pretty sure that there was a lot of talking about during the conference. But before we start talking about all that, uh, interesting stuff about the, the CodeX and what are some of the projects that Stanford Law is, is working on, uh, can you tell us about, uh, your, your background, uh, Roland? How, how, how was that path from Austria to California, and how you did end up in the Bay Area teaching at Stanford? Yeah, it's actually through, uh, bodybuilding. I was a, a bodybuilder. Really? No, that's, yeah, that's the analog- It doesn't Arnold. That's it. No, uh, so I was born and raised in, uh, Innsbruck in, uh, the Austrian mountains. Um, and had every intention to get my law degree there and become a, a lawyer in Innsbruck, but then, uh, took a year, uh, to study in the UK and really enjoyed living in an international environment.

2:19So the first opportunity I, I got after graduating from law school, um, I went to Brussels, uh, to work at the European institutions, and then got very interested in, in this whole area of, uh, privacy law and data protection. It was sort of the late '90s when that was becoming a big issue of tension between the US and the EU. And decided to, like, you know, focus on studying this area more and applied for a master's program, and somehow kind of, uh, slipped off the pile of rejects, I guess into, and made it into Stanford Law School. And, um, and then really, um, fell in love with Silicon Valley and California and Stanford, and I looked for ways to stay here. Worked at a, at a tech law firm. After I got my master's, worked at a tech law firm for a short time, and then found an opportunity to come back to Stanford as a teaching fellow for a new LLM program in law, science, and technology, which we started then.

3:28Um, this is almost 20 years ago. And then I thought I would do that for, for a short time, but then found opportunities at Stanford to try out new things, and one of those new things was, you know, creating a center that would focus on bringing technology to the legal system. And I, I got really excited about that because, you know, it involves building technology and, you know, solving interesting legal information problems. And, and so that became my passion and, uh, and, you know, we founded the center, and it's been over 15 years. And, and, um, yeah, and I think, you know, sort of it sort of coincided with, you know, the world around us changing too and, uh, being more pressure on the legal profession to change how legal services are delivered. And, and many of our students has started taking an interest in doing things differently in the legal system and, and so we've recreated this, this community and this platform and, and anyway, so...

4:36And then the years flew by, and, and we're still around, so... That's amazing. So Roland, that was, uh... I was on the last Future of Law Conference in 2019 before the pandemic, and now, and I gotta say, like, this was one of my favorite ones. It's like everybody was there. It's, uh, amazing for networking. You can talk to everybody there. Uh, the conference are, are great, and Palo Alto is a place that you gotta, you gotta be there at, at least once in your life. I mean, and if you can live there, that's, that's amazing, right? So but before we can talk about and, and you, you can tell us some, some of the highlights on this last conference of the 2022, can you tell us what's the story behind CodeX? Like, how did you co- co-found it? Yeah. Well, so, okay, so the center, basically the Center for Legal Informatics, you know, was started, we had this workshop, uh, like I said, about 15 years ago. And, um, my former boss at the law school, uh, uh, Peggy Radin, had co-taught a course with, uh, uh, Professor Genessa Raczynski in computer science and on computers and law, and she was sort of covering the law of computers aspect, and he was talking about how you can use AI technologies and computers to do legal things, and that's nothing new, right?

5:57That, that sort of AI and law movement has been around- Since the very early days in AI. But for Professor Jennessarat, it seemed like an sort of, uh, um, uh, an exciting time with, you know, new, new opportunities to bring technology to the law because we had the, the internet was really taking off. There's much more data available. There's new, um, legal modeling, uh, techniques out there, and knowledge representation techniques out there. And so he thought sort of that that was a kind of a, a good time to give more attention to that, and we started with a workshop. And some of the participants in that, that workshop then said, "Well, we should continue this effort, and we should create a center around it." And so that was sort of the initial spark and, you know, we brainstormed some names and came up with this idea of CodeX as sort of... You know, at the time there were a lot of X centers formed at Stanford. We have a BioX, a MediaX, and I thought like, okay, for the intersection of, of law and technology, the, you know, sort of legal code and computer code, you know, CodeX seemed like a good name. And so and we had some discussions around, you know, whether it should be CodeX...

7:10Um, actually no, one of the discussions was whether we should call it Lex- Lex Machina, was some of, uh, people who were there at the very first moment they, they liked that name. But they later went on to start a company called Lex Machina. Um, but, um, in terms of the second part of the name, we weren't quite sure if we should call it the Center for Computational Law or the Center for Legal Informatics. See, computational law is somewhat narrower, and that's really the focus of the center. You know, the f- the automation of, of legal reasoning. That's what we mean by computational, uh, law. But we wanted to also have a broad umbrella, and there's many other techniques in legal informatics and folks now affiliated with the center who do things that are not neatly in that computational law space, but in a broader legal informatics space. So ultimately we settled on the Center for Legal Informatics. Anyway, so that, that was the birth moment.

8:01But then, you know, we did some different research projects, you know, internally, also with, with industry. Um, but I would say around 2008, 2009, 2010, you know, there was really sort of a groundswell of, of interest in new approaches and, you know, many of our students started doing interesting things. And we said, "Okay, let's bring the community together in a sort of, in, in different formats," right? We had started having weekly group meetings, uh, where people could pitch their ideas and, and more and more people would come out of the woodwork and say, "Oh, how interesting, there's other people working on this." And I think this community aspect started to become something that people really appreciated, uh, and valued about what we do. So it's not just the research, it's also the community. I think there's, there's real power, I think, in that network. And, and so what we, uh, we did is like, you know, have these different formats and then established our Future of Law Conference.

8:59It's, it's been 10 years ago that we started the CodeX Future of Law Conference, and it's become our flagship program that we run, uh, every year, basically looking for, you know, you know, what's coming down the pike. You know, what are important trends that we should pay attention to as a legal innovation community. And, and we are fortunate because this community has been growing and there's just so many amazing people in this community, and they're just, you know, really happy to come in and share their expertise. And so, so, so we want to give them, you know, a platform and, and, and help them showcase their work. Um, and also showcase the work we are doing at CodeX. And so, so yeah. So now this was the first time, 2022, that we brought everyone together again, uh, in a, in the physical world. And, uh, we had some kind of anxiety about that, you know, coming back into a real world setting. But, um, I think we had a great program.

10:00We actually also had a, a web stream set up so people who couldn't come because of the pandemic, they could participate remotely. And we're about actually to release the, the videos of the conference, so we had to process the videos. So they, they're gonna come out in the next couple of days actually. Um, so I think it was a fantastic event this year. Uh, we had, you know, the GC of, uh, of, of Meta, Jennifer Newstead, give the opening keynote, and really fascinating keynote, and then a great panel afterwards talking about the metaverse and the legal issues of the metaverse, but also computational law in the metaverse. And then just a series of other great presentations. You know, one that's quite memorable is one of our fellows. Uh, he was, uh, he's doing a blockchain, uh, establishing a, a water, um, uh, water rights marketplace using the blockchain. And they- That's interesting... showed him on stage with, you know, a big bucket of water and trying to turn on the s- spigot basically through the blockchain and it was sort of like, um...

11:04Anyways, this is one of the, the highlights of the many highlights of the conference. I really encourage you to, to check it out. Um, but yeah, so Future of Law is really, has become really important and I invite everyone, so usually we end up in the first, first week of April. Next year we might push it out a little bit, um, and it's still to be determined, but it's, it's great. I think it's great content but for us it's always, you know, the highlight is really bringing the community together and, you know, this seeing our, you know, old friends and new friends and, and yeah. So I encourage everyone to, to come hopefully, hopefully next year. If you haven't been there yet, hopefully you can join us next year. All right, Roland, that's, that sounds, um, you know, it's exciting, it's interesting and it's, it's crazy that, you know, the team has been doing this for, for 10 years now and, and you've been putting this conference together and obviously been able to see it grow and, and also I, I think it's so interesting that you've seen this space really develop into, to what it is today when it, it comes to legal tech and, and, uh, you know, the other ventures that surround it. But I, you know, my- Yeah...

12:06I, my question, I think what I'm interested in learning is, you know- When, when this started, you know, 10 years ago, um, w- what was the focus then, and how have things evolved, and w- where do you think that the, the legal tech space is, is going to be going over the next two or three years? Yeah, okay, wow, that's a great question, too. So, so yeah, at some point, this is a long time ago, uh, somebody who's also into space, um, said, "Oh," you know, met that person for the first time, said, "Oh, Roland, you're, you're a dinosaur in the space." And this is a long time ago, so like imagine how I feel right now. Um, but yeah, the, the space has just grown tremendously. You know, we're tracking early stage startups in the space in our, our tech index, uh, database, and I think we have over 1,800 companies in there. It's a curated database, so there's obviously there's, there's even more out there. And so it's, it's just been exploding. Uh, the awareness has exploded.

13:02I think, um, from a law school's perspective, law schools are really trying to tackle the topic and figuring out how do we teach legal tech to s- and computational law and legal informatics to, to our students, um, and how do we integrate that in the curriculum. Um, and so, like, lots of law schools are kind of trying to figure that out. Uh, the legal professional law firms are more than ever, I think, really looking to legal tech, you know, that they maybe build in-house even or work with outside, uh, providers to change the way that they deliver their services. You know, they feel even more pressure from their clients to, you know, to be efficient, and, and, um, and deliver the services in a tech-enabled way. In-house departments have been sort of at the forefront, m- even before law firms, in terms of like using legal tech to, to improve how they serve their internal clients and to keep the cost at bay and, you know, to not, you know, reinvent the wheel over and over again and provide bespoke legal services where that's not needed. So, so the place has just been, uh, so th- there's this... Sorry, the space has just really been exploding, um, and there's been a tremendous amount of investment flowing into it. And, and I think, you know, now we're sort of at the point where sort of from the traditional law firm's perspective, I think those who are really technically enabled to embrace legal tech are really sort of pulling away from the, from the rest of the pack, and they're really thinking about, "Oh, look at, we're sitting on, on this, you know, treasure chest of data.

14:46You know, we can do k- all kinds of interesting things with those data, new services for our clients. It's value-added services." And, um, so it's not just about actually using the tech to improve their own operational efficiency, but also to create new services for the clients, you know, predicting legal outcomes, things like that. So, uh, and/or expert type of systems, computational law systems where, like, clients could sort of navigate through a, you know, a workflow to get, you know, legal answers, you know, by a machine to some degree . And then, um, and then ma- you know, machines that are smart enough to escalate a legal question to the human lawyer where needed. So for the most part, I would say all these tech numbers, there's always this talk about the robo-lawyer.

15:41I said for the most part, uh, the robo-lawyer is still kind of science fiction in the sense a robo-lawyer who could do what human lawyers do, right? So I see most of the tech that's out there really used as lawyer-enhancing technologies rather than lawyer-replacing technologies. But, uh, yeah, there's a tremendous... And it's not just in, in, uh, in the traditional legal profession. Uh, you know, I think the courts are also looking towards more innovation, uh, in terms of like, you know, getting an, providing a better user experience for, uh, for litigants. Um, and there's some inroads there. Of course, the government is, is coming in, and they're using, you know, all different kinds of AI and different agencies to do their work better. And, um, and so the government's a, is a, is an important player. Um, but also in other areas.

16:36So w- a big research pro- project at the moment is focused on using computational law in the insurance and computational contracts in the insurance space. How can we create a better experience for consumers, um, using computable contracts in the insurance space? So anyways, it's hard to kinda, um, you know, pinpoint any particular area. I think obviously there's a lot of excitement around, you know, contract life cycle management. Contracts are everywhere and, and as the inefficiencies are, are enormous, and if you can have and use contract life cycle management, it can, you know, actually, you know, h- save costs and generate new opportunities for companies. Um, but also in, in other areas of, you know, legal outcome prediction, uh, legal research, computational law.

17:37Of course, blockchain's come, become a huge thing, right? And that's also, you know, the DAO and smart contracts in the blockchain are also legal tech. So it's, um, yeah, there's a tremendous amount of exciting things, uh, happening. And, um, and, um, I think, yeah, it's a, it's a really exciting time to be a lawyer and a lawyer who knows how to integrate technology in, in, in the way that legal services are provided. Right. There's, um... I mean, right now, as you said, there's a lot of investment going into legal tech, right? Uh, I would say that even, like, the most ba- well, maybe not the basic ones, but, like, most of the first kind of legal technology are still one of the hottest trends, like the, like the CLMs, Contract Lifecycle Management, because every- everybody knows, like, uh, companies needs to have better contract flows because there's always bottleneck. Uh, the com- the commercial department i- inside a company, they always try to find a way on how to avoid legal because they know if they, if, if they start talking to legal, then a deal can take, you know- Right...

18:44months to close it. Yeah. Right? Or even e- electronic signatures. Like, I was listening to a conference by a DocuSign CEO and, and he still says that even in the US, where I can tell you as some- someone from Mexico and/or Latin America, he was saying that only, there's a penetration of only or less than 10%. So there's 90% of the people still, still, still working with paper. And now that, that you're talking about, I, I, I love watching, uh, all the CodeX conferences that, that, that you or- organize. I, I think they're, like, weekly or bi- bi- biweekly ones, the, the webinars, where you can see some of the trends and of the new kind of technologies, right? And, and I, I think people still a little bit afraid, right? Because they, they don't know where to start. But this is something that we've been talking a lot with, with some of our previous guests, right? You, you gotta understand your processes. And once you understand the processes and you find those bottlenecks, because it's not the, the same kind of work inside a law firm than an in-house team.

19:45Or even inside a law firm, it's not the, the same from a labor law lawyer or to an M&A or for corporate or, or capital markets, right? But it's, it's, it's great that, uh, the, that, that you and, and your team and, and Stanford have been studying this a lot, and you're documenting everything on the website. So I really, really recommend everybody to just, uh, Google CodeX Stanford and see, uh, of all of that information that, that you have published there. Oh, thank you. Yeah, thanks for that plug. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, so we have that, uh, uh, we have, uh, weekly group meetings normally. Uh, we're taking a little bit of a, a break this, uh, this, this quarter. But, you know, if you put your email on our mailing list then you'll see what's, what's coming up. And, and so, uh, yeah, usually we have them, yeah, in the fall. Probably in the summer a few, and in the fall we'll be back to our, our weekly, uh, cadence. Right. So, uh, Roland, and now I'd like to shift now into your entrepreneurial side, right?

20:46Uh, because I think most students, and just tell me if, if I'm wrong, but there, they all still think that there are only three main paths as a lawyer, right? You either work a law firm, as in-house counsel, or in the academia. But you're on the board of directors of a lot of companies, Miraco, LexCheck, IP Nexus, and also co-founder of Beta Inc. and SIPX. Like, what would you recommend to a lawyer that wants to found a new venture, and what's your experience on building a start- a startup? Hmm. Yeah, so first of all, I think it's, you know, I think startups, you know, they can bring out the best and the worst in people, right? So it's really important that you team up with somebody who sort of, uh, shares your, shares your values, right? It's... And it's, it's good to have disagreement about ideas, but sort of in the basic level I think you wanna team up with people who, who sort of are on the same page in terms of, of values. Um, and I think, um, yeah, that's, uh, you know, it's just, that's also such a big topic, right? So I have a lot of passion for starting new things. I think creating, um, companies is a, is an, sort of essentially creative kind of effort.

22:01And, and it's, it's fun, right? And, um, but there's also a lot of frustrations. It's a rollercoaster, right? As you, as you know very well. There's, there's a up and down. And, um, and, uh, so, um, so that's, you know, it requires a lot of, um, dedication, I think, and sort of ability to overcome, uh, adversity. Um, and, you know, just, I think, I think the important thing is, and that's so, you know, this sort of all common knowledge at this point, I guess, is, like, you know, this sort of fail fast and fail often. You know, because it's like, it's all about, you know, trial and error and listen closely to the customer and, and be able to not, you know, not, don't operate in a bubble, right? Don't come up with, you know, big, uh, big theoretical ideas and then, you know, without really checking back with your customer. So this idea of, like, MVP-ing and all that, I think, is, is really, is really critical. And, uh, yeah, so I think, you know, what can I tell you? So the last one, uh, every time there's new things to be learned.

23:09The last one I founded where I'm on the board is, uh, is Miraco, which is actually not legal tech. Originally we thought this there is eventually gonna be a legal tech angle, uh, which has to do with, uh, with, um, you know, open source development and the blockchain. But at this point it's, uh, it's, um, basically a suite of technologies that help software developers, um, in the way they develop software. So it's a DevOps tool, um, and basically a dashboard that allows you to pull together important data from all the tools you're using as you're creating software. And, um, anyways, but this is sort of, um, a globally distributed team with, uh, people working in Europe, in the US, in China, and around the world. And so it's, it's really fascinating and, you know, sort of bringing a group of people together. And, you know, the importance of culture too, of establishing, you know, culture in a company.

24:08That's also, I think it's generally known, but, but you see it when it's like, when it works, right? And sometimes when it doesn't work, you don't know, like, why does this not work? And then when it works, it's like, um, it's almost, it's almost magical. So- Anyways, I could, uh, uh, you know, go on and on. I don't wanna bore you with that. But, um, I think, uh, for lawyers, right, uh, to come back to your initial question, I think there's exciting new, um, career paths available now outside of the traditional legal paths, and those could be, you know, in the existing legal, uh, organizations. You know, it could be courts, governments, or law firms. As somebody who does, you know, things like, whatever, legal process design or, like, you know, as a legal technologist within those organizations or, um, you know, start a, do the, go the startup route.

25:09But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's competitive out there. Um, I will not say, you know, I sometimes they say, "Well, you should not... You know, that this is already a crowded area." And then you see somebody who's a late entrant, and they do something right, and they have a different user experience, and all of a sudden they really- Right... pull away from the rest, right? Um, and, um, and so I'm like, I've become, you know, sort of a, a cautious in not telling that to anyone because, uh, you know, like, you know, there's some areas- It's not really a-... where there's a lot going. Now, e-discovery has a lot going on, CLM, and other areas, right? Very competitive markets, and sometimes hard from a customer's point of view to understand, you know, well, you know, why should I go with that company versus that company. But, um, but yeah, sometimes those late entrants, they really, and they really tear it up and they, uh, you know, they become sort of the dominant force in the space.

26:03Um, so anyway, so I think that's also, that is also a possible r- route. Um, but it's always important that, you know, either you're, like, an experienced lawyer, right, and you really know what, what the shortcomings are in your area, you know, labor law or whatever it is, you know, traffic ticket law, whatever it is, right? You know. You're deep in that space, and you know what's not working. And then you wanna team up with a technologist who can help you come up with a better, uh, better solution, right? And you should never underestimate because there's many technologists who see, generally understand the law as being an interesting application area for, for technology, for latest machine learning or whatever, rules-based AI techniques. Um, but, but they don't understand how the law works, right? So, so that's, it's really important for them to be matched up with the right, uh, domain expert, right?

27:02And I think sort of like, we sort of, uh, play a little bit that matchmaking role in, uh, in my center. But, um, but so anyway, so, uh, so I think, yeah, that's important to find the right, the right, um, team members, you know, who have the right skills, but also sort of share your, uh, share your values. And, um, and then, yeah, just, uh, just get s- get an early, get an early user in and, and make them, make them happy. And then, you know, it will, uh, things will, will get their own momentum, and then, uh, and, and, you know, enjoy the ride. Right. And I think that's a, a very entrepreneurial mindset, right? Because, uh, people or your market, they, they don't care about the technology, even if you're using blockchain or artificial intelligence. They care how do you solve their problems. It's just like- Exactly... focus on the problems, and if you understand their problems and how to make things easier, if you can save time, money, or bring some value to your customers, so that's like, I would be...

28:07I, I, I think that that's, like, the key in order to escalate, right? Yeah. So. I think that's a great point to just very quickly, I think, yeah, sometimes there are people who have a, a hammer, right? And then everything starts looking like a nail to them, right? And, and you wanna go, you wanna start with the problem, right, and not with a specific technique for how you, you know, for how you can solve theoretical problems, yeah. Exactly. And, and this, this is one, uh, our last question, Roland. And I think, like, one, um, there- there's, like, an underdog, right, in the, in the legal industry. Now they have, they are known as the alternative legal service provider, right? Because I think they, they, they saw that there was a, there, there, there was an issue or a problem in the market, right? Because maybe either the law firms were still working using, I like to say that they still use, or most of them use the same technology since Windows 95. Yeah.

29:05Just Redlining compare, email, and I don't know, some kind of cloud review, uh, or, or, or internal server. But they found that, uh, in-house teams or, or, or, uh, uh, legal teams inside law departments, they have this ne- necessity, right, in order to become more efficient, and they're using technology in order to solve those problems. Uh, I mean, and, and I... Maybe they're not underdogs, uh, now because even Chambers and Partners now they have their own ranking. Now there's a ranking of- Yeah... alternative legal service providers. So what do you think, like, that, how, how the market is, is, is looking at them, and how are they growing inside the legal industry, which is a very conservative one? Right. So, uh, yeah, I think they're gaining a lot of market share, and I think they're sort of, um, technically enabled, and some, some of them are quite acquisitive, right?

30:04Like, they, you start with a core offering, and then they bring, they purchase, you know, sort of legal tech companies with a particular expertise in, whatever, legal outcome prediction in a particular area or, you know, whatever, whatever it may be. So yeah, so I think they are, they are a force to be reckoned with. Um, and, uh, and, you know, they can, I think they're very price competitive compared to the To the, um, you know, traditional law firms Billable hours. Some law firms start working with them for very large matters, right? Right. And, or some of them, some law firms create their own, uh, alternative legal service providers. Um, and so I think, um, I think they're here to stay, and it's, it's an interes- I think they're, they're an int- interesting... They're occupying an interesting part in the market, and I think they're gonna get ever more sophisticated, right? Like, so I think they, so there was this sort of, kind of perhaps ceiling of, like, the kinds of services that they could or they even wanted to provide, right?

31:06And then there's sort of the rest, you know, of the highly bespoke bet the farm kind of issues where you, where you want to go to, like, your top leading law firm. Um, and I think, you know, I think, you know, they're probably, they're probably trying to move upmarket and provide sort of more, you know, services for more complex legal issues. Uh, but yeah, definitely a important area. And also as a sort of a, a, a, in, in terms of that function of bringing in more technology, I think, you know, they, they, they will play an important role in, in, from that point of view, too. Yeah, Roland, I, I think, you know, I think you've brought up some great points here. And, and I, I think this, you know, this episode's gonna really hit home with, with those, uh, folks that are in law school looking to do something, not sure exactly where they wanna take their career. Um, and, and it's always, you know, it's, I mean, it's amazing to hear that firms or, or law schools are, are starting to take these different types of approaches to allow, you know, flexibility in careers and, and giving folks, um, an understanding of what's out there, what's available to them to, to pursue maybe, you know, like Pepe said, right, not your standard, um, path when it, it comes to, to leaving law school and, and going into a firm.

32:20Um, so, you know, hey, we really appreciate you, um, coming on to, to talk with us about this. And, you know, if, if somebody wants to learn more about, you know, what you're doing or have a conversation, uh, w- with, you know, about the things that you've had success doing, um, where's the, the best place to do that? So yeah, so thank you. Uh, you can, uh, find more information about Codex at, uh, on our website, codex.stanford.edu. Uh, and always, you know, feel free to shoot me an email, and we'll set up a time and talk. Um, so, uh, yeah, my, uh, email is rogl@law.stanford.edu. And, um, yeah, please reach out. All right. Well, thanks, Roland. We really appreciate you coming on, and thanks everybody for listening to another episode of Contract Heroes. We hope to h- see you back here soon. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Thank you, Roland. All right. Thanks.