We recently sat down with Navdeep Gulati, Senior Contract Administrator at ATCO Electric, and discussed his experience with managing contracts and why having the proper processes in place is so important to all organizations regardless of shape or size. During our discussion we also chatted about best practices during the negotiation process, change orders, invoicing, and why using precise language in your contracts is so important.
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0:00Welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, the show where our guests, and sometimes us, provide best practice recommendations on all things related to contract management. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Uh, and today on the show we have Navdeep Gulati. Uh, he's the contract specialist working, uh, for the Alberta utility company known as ATCO Electric. Uh, Navdeep has a, an extensive background in the contract space, and before we dive into our typical Q&A and back and forth, uh, we wanted to flip things over to Navdeep to get a little bit more background, uh, information on where he's coming from, what he's been working on, and, uh, where he is now. So Navdeep, thank you for joining us, and, uh, we'd love to hear a little bit more about yourself. Thanks, Marc and Pepe, for inviting me here. I am happy to be here with you guys. Awesome.
1:12Navdeep, so, uh, I know you, you have an extensive background working on contract management, but can you tell us, like, what you've been doing before starting to work at ATCO? Okay. So yeah, as you said, you know, there's one Pepe that, uh, I've been here working in the, you know, the procurement and the contract management field for quite a number of years. Okay. So I can say a- a- as old I am, or maybe a little older than what I am now, so Some days you work more than in a normal day. Right. So I started, uh, my, you can say, professional life. I've done the specialist in the civil engineering and then master's in the business administration. I've done this from India while, uh, born and brought up in India, right? Right. So after doing my studies and, you know, doing some sort of job there, a little bit of starting my career life there, then I moved to Middle East. I, I went to the country by the name Kuwait.
2:10It's a small country, but quite famous country. You know, you must have heard about it a lot, you know, coming in a lot of news due to the gas- Oil... powers, you know. Okay. So it's a small but a very prominent country in the, uh, world scenario. So I was lucky, you know, to get a, a job there in one of the leading, uh, EPC company there, Consolidated Contractors Company. Okay. So this company is, uh, quite, uh, active in the oil sector and in the utility sector in that area. So my placement is, was in the utility sector for basically doing various jobs for them in the transmission and, and distribution networks, right? So I built, you know, a lot of, uh, transmission lines, substations. So I worked, uh, with my construction and the management background. I worked in the, in the, in the construction. I worked as a, as a project manager and as a leading for the contract and business development manager. So different roles, you know, different, uh, hats I've been wearing, uh, while working in, uh, around 20 years in that company.
3:09Then I moved little bit, you know, I don't know, maybe my interest or, you know, my destiny had it. So, uh, I moved to the, uh, oil sector to one of the owner operator refineries, and then I start concentrating in the contract management field, right? So I was basically like a senior contracts engineer in that, uh, company where I was, uh, handling all the contractual issues for, uh, various, uh, large refinery projects. So that was actually a good eye-opener also, I can say it for me, you know. Learning how to deal with the huge mega projects. Uh, uh, w- being, you being an owner operator and then, you know, you are working with large contractors, large international contractors. How do they deal? You're learning, although you are basically supervising the teams of those contractors, but you learn a lot from those contractors also, you know. I, I'll be really very, very, very, very, very honest in that, you know. It's really, it was really wonderful, you know, working with those teams there, right? Right. And then my, uh, uh, life moved me to Can- uh, Canada. 2013, I moved.
4:17I got a job there, then, you know, with my background, with my, you know, the s- uh, the skill set there. I was, uh, lucky enough that, you know, my first job there I got in, in the, again, in the utility sector, only what I was doing similar to what I was doing before. And then with the ATCO Electric, I start, you know, managing the, uh, various contracts. So I'm handling procurement works, handling the contract management o- once, you know, you have this, those contracts for construction of transmission lines or substation projects, right? All those works I'm, uh, doing now. So, mm, uh, uh, I think, you know, because a- all my life, basic thing is, you know, I have worked in a multicultural, multinational, in the diverse groups, right? So life been ha- and also always been, you know, like an interesting work field for me, where, uh, mm, I got a chance to people with various backgrounds. I think that is one of the most interesting part in my background, right? That, you know- Right... I never confined myself to one, one area or one group, right? And that really helped me to, uh, you know, know people more, deal with people p- more, and, uh, the best part was, you know, get out of the people the best I could for my company, right?
5:37So my, uh, regarding the work there, the, y- you know, in the contracting is a, is always a mixed bag, right? So you get some mixed contracts. I was lucky enough to get, get some, you know, easygoing projects where what we plan, things go as per the plan. But again, life is not a fairy tale story. Right. Oh. It's not always, it's not always that easy. It's not always that easy. Yeah. Right. You know, so we always wish for the easy part, but always, uh, we come across, uh, all strange things. Right? So this also happened in a lot of the contracts where we have all kind of stories, tough stories also. We had a, a problem in the design. Our own design was, you can say, wrong. Clubbed with, uh, we had a tough client, and then we have a contractor who's well experienced, but same time very demanding one. Right. Who wants everything perfect on the table, and the moment you make a mistake, their team is ready to come up with the claims- ... come up with the extra cost. Of course.
6:37You know, I'm sure people, you know, who are in the contracting field, they know, you know, that, uh, how easy is, is, is, it's to get the claims and how difficult it is to handle those claims. So those have been, uh, some interesting part of my life journey, right? And, uh, but I'm, uh, feeling happy that overall so far, uh, I've been able to manage through this one, and, uh, still doing it and hoping for the best. Of course. And, uh, today I'm here. Thanks for your invite to- Yeah... uh, make, make me share my life story. It's our pleasure, Navdeep. And so I think, uh, a, a lot of our audience and a lot of the companies that we have worked with, I mean, they have project management processes, but maybe they don't put them that much attention because I don't think... maybe they don't think it's important, or maybe it's something they've been thinking about but never implemented.
7:33But with all your experience with the good deals and the more difficult deals, like, why would you recommend or, or why do you think that the contracting process of every organization needs attention? Uh, that's a very interesting question. It's, and I think you, you started rightly with the very basic question on the contracting life, right? Mm, I will say, you know, uh, I think, uh, my one line will answer the most part of this one. Most of the organization, by a rough estimate, spend 70 to 80% of their, uh, expenses are on the contracts, right? So this may be the contracts, you know, for the actual project works, for the procurement of the materials, even for the procurement of the resources, manpower, right? Right. So, uh, you can see, you know, they are spending most of their money through the contracts, big or small or whatever it is, right?
8:34So this definitely makes it very important for any organization to have the right contracting process in place, right? So, which is one basic requirement, and, um, uh, sadly, you know, I, I, I will say, you know, from my experience, you know, uh, okay, luckily I've been working in the big organization where I have, uh, you know, uh, we used to have proper system in place, but I have dealt with a lot of companies, lot, lot of organizations, you know, as my, uh, uh, vendors and even, you know, some of my clients where I have seen, uh, project management or the contract management systems or the processes are not written in black and white. Right. Right? Okay. So those are the, you know, the, the problems.
9:22You know, the employees are really, you know, this one, uh, they try to do their best and each one is making their own judgments what is the best for them, right? So, so some people, maybe they, they have good background, good knowledge. You, you come across with them, you find a good dealing with them. But some of the persons who don't understand the real contracting process, w- you know, you'll, you'll just lose your time with them. So those kind of situations come across. So basically, you know, coming, um, uh, you know, uh, what I reached to this conclusion in life, you know, most of the organization, they should spend some time and resources to get a clear project management and the contract management procedure processes written for them, right? So if you're even a small organization, you can get some consultants. For a big organization, you can have your own people write it there, or you can maybe hire a third party consultant to help you to write it. But I feel, you know, it's one of the mandatory things which all organizations should do. Right. Right. Yeah.
10:19And, and I think it's, you know, it's important to, that you pointed out, right, that that's for smaller organizations, I mean, there might not be somebody inside the organization that really understands what those processes need to look like. So, so looking outside to a, a, a consultant and a, and a third party, you know, is, is something that, um, you know, a- again, even larger organizations might have to do if, if they don't have anybody experienced inside, you know, in-house. Um, and, and I guess this kind of brings us... uh, it's a good segue into our next question here, which is, you know, I mean, Navdeep, how, how do you, how do you deal with these, these other parties and, and their expectations when you're going through this contracting process? Okay. So yeah. So the basically, uh, what we define contract is, is a, is a, is a, is a basically an understanding or, you know, uh, is a document, or it may be a verbal also, right? It, it is a charter which defines the relationship between two parties or more than two parties, right?
11:18So what, what is the, the, as I said before, the contract is something now which gives you in black and white how, how, how, how each party is supposed to deal, right? So how, uh, what... and then, you know, second part comes, you know, once you start dealing with them then, uh, it's a very good question mark, you know, expectations, right? So each party, when they come to the table, when, when they, uh, sign the paper, and once they are going out of this one, their mind starts with some expectations. Mm-hmm. Right? So the owner has his own expectations. They want the good job. They want the clean job. They want the job to be, uh, meeting the time and budget, meeting the time, the cost budget, right? They, they don't want any hassle. They don't want, you know, uh, excess of the, all those, uh, communication and letters and everything. Whereas the contractor is coming, going with an expectation, "Oh, I, I want to do this job. I want to make some money out of it. I want to..."... develop some relationship which can help me to get further jobs. So both the parties, you know, they come up with some, uh, expectations.
12:24And how to meet the expectation, I will say a few points, you know, which, you know, although there is a lot can be said about it, but few important things which I have learned in my life, you know, uh, how to deal with the other expectation. I can say, you know, uh, uh, I, uh, the first thing will be just to be clear, what is the, uh, the, the, what, what are the, what are the, what are the, your parts? What are you supposed to do? So i- i- uh, one of the things we do in the contracting is the responsibility matrix, right? Right. So, you know, when you draw the responsibility matrix, you know that, okay, what, what you're supposed to do, right? And that also gives you some idea what are the rights of the other, other party, right? Okay. And then to start with this one, a good thing to start is to read the contract. Like, you know, because even if the owner team had drafted the contract, but the people who are managing the contract, it's very important then for them to read the book. Right.
13:17And similarly for the contractor team, it's very important to, to read the book. I know from my experience, you know, you know, some of the contracts, we just thought that, you know, we took the things for granted. And when we have the problems we, we have in the email or in a letter coming in the old times, you know, with the, with the clause, citing in clause, which we know it is there, right? Right. So it's very important, you know, to when, when you make your expectations and when you want to meet the expectations, right? Okay. So y- you read what is it mentioned in the book, right? Okay. And, uh, then, you know, uh, i- i- it's, it's good also, one good step is to be, you know, uh, really present and actively p- participate in the kickoff meetings, right? So this is basically, you know, which sets the ball rolling. So during the kickoff meeting, owner, most of the owners are very vocal about what they're expecting in this contract, right? So I would recommend all the contractors, you know, to be very careful during the kickoff meeting and listen to, you know, because, uh, now most of the owners they come with, with various, their subject matter experts.
14:22So they'll have the safety expert, they will have the design expert, they will have the electromagnetic, uh, mechanical design experts. They'll have the survey expert. So for the contractor to listen to those experts to see that, you know, will give a very good idea to the contractor if they're listening to it carefully, what are the expectations, right? And then they can make out, you know, their, once they go back home, they can make their plan how they want, they want to meet the expectations. And, uh, same time it'll be a good time for them to go and see, you know, if they found that owner is coming up having some thoughts which are really not practical, which is something beyond the contract book. So what I said, you know, listening to them- Right... and reading the book. So when they do their, uh, home, back home analysis, they can definitely go back to the owner and, uh, a reasonable owner will definitely listen to them, right? So they will go by the book, but same time they'll be very reasonable and considerate in their approach.
15:19So it's, it's good actually, you know, to have this kind of discussions right at the beginning. And then, you know, once you, both the parties, they fairly feel that they're on the same page, I think the relationship will go much more smoother. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, yeah, I mean those are, those are some great points, right? I mean, you know, making sure that the expectations and responsibilities of both sides of the agreement are, are clear and, and understood. And I mean, obviously it seems like a no-brainer, but just reading the contract and making sure that you understand, you know, what, where, where the, the, the positives and the negatives are, what's going to stand out. You know, what's gonna be something that we have to make sure that we're really keeping expectations, uh, close to our, our chest in. Um, a- and then of course, you know, being present in that kickoff meeting, having all parties there, having all parties agreeable to, to things that are, are being walked through. Um, no, Navdeep, I think that those are some great, great takeaways and some are more obvious than others, but you know, I think that some of the most obvious things in life are things that we kind of forget to do.
16:17So it's, it's definitely great to bring those up. Exactly, Marc, you know. That, yeah, that, that's what I'm trying to highlight here because what happens more, more obvious things we are very easy to forget, you know. Mm-hmm. Exactly. So Navdeep, we, we can talk about when things go good in a contractor relationship, this means you do the work and you get paid, right? That's like the best scenario. But what happens when things go bad? So how, how, how can you handle those, uh, relationships with vendors or client where there was something that maybe you didn't realize was inside of the contract or maybe anything else went wrong? Like could you give us one or tell us a story or give us one example on, on, uh, on your experience when that happened? Oh, that's again, you, you guys are coming up with very good questions. So- Right. So, uh, I consider relationship as one of the key areas for the success in a, in a con- in a contractual relationship, right? Right. So, uh, although we say that, you know, it, it, it's, it's, it's a book, uh, you just follow the book, but again, who's following the books is the human beings. And we human beings are more emotional than scientific, right?
17:38Yeah. Exactly. And yeah, and, and, and the emotions and relationship, they go hand in hand with each other, right? So, and, uh, in contracting field like any other field, it's easy to build up the relationship, but it's easier to ruin the relationship, right? Right. So it's very, you know, so it's, it's, it's, you know, um, uh, so what, uh, I will say is, you know, contractor and, um, and the owner and all the parties, they do have to work consciously to build a relationship, right? So, you know, it's, I, I, I would recommend everyone working on a contract, you know, to keep one thing in their mind that, you know, okay, whatever they want to, what, what they, whatever they want to, when they want to participate in the meeting on telephone, uh, conference calls or emails, you know- They need to keep something at the back of their mind that we have relationships to be maintained here. Right? Okay. So, um, um, and, uh, in contracting world, it's not like, you know, the human relationship, you know, like your friend circle, it goes... No- nothing is guided.
18:49But in contracting world, most of the, most of the things are, you know, mentioned in black and white. Mm-hmm. It's good to know that we have a, we have a book to b- uh, back up, you know, with our, uh, with our, with our decisions. So it's good actually, you know, that okay, we have th- those books to guide us, as long as you, you follow those, those, those guidelines, right? And, uh, uh, what happens that, you know, I will say that, you know, uh, as long, um, uh... If you're doing something, you're taking some action, right? Okay. Y- y- you're doing with a good... with, with your, uh, uh, fully e- ethical way, okay, with your good intentions toward the contract and, you know, with the book in the mind, right? Even if the other party may not like it momentarily, but I've seen it in my life, in the long run, they will always appreciate your step. Because, you know, you did the right thing on an overall scenario. So, right. So th- that's what I will recommend, you know, basically to... for any... if you, uh, to keep the relationship, right? So, um, and, uh, uh, coming to your second part of your question, uh, Pepe, that, you know, said, you know, "Give me some example." I can give you an example, you know, very simple example what happened, you know.
20:02In one of our contracting, uh, jobs, we, we asked the contractors to bring, uh... because they had some technicians working, uh, in a, in a live substation. So we asked him, "Even, even if you have those, uh, technicians, we need, you need to bring one specialist guy, one specialist, uh, with this certification to be as the supervisor." Okay. So that's an extra cost to the contractor. So... And we told them, "This is as per the, um, uh, you know, this one, our contract, part of your scope." So the contractor said, "I never, uh, budgeted this, uh, item," okay? "So it's not mentioned there in the contract," you know, right? So he wanted to charge us for... So charge us for this one. So, uh, we do have some extra other clauses, you know, that the contractor cannot stop the work. So we, we took the help of those clauses to guide them. Okay, so even the contractor, you know, they wanted their money, but still they not wanted to go for a very, uh, you know, huge issue. So they brought the guy.
21:03The, the... We continued with the work, but still at the back of it, we continued some discussion. Okay? Uh, from, from our side, from my side, basically, I thought it as a very, um, uh, maybe my, y- you know, this one, uh, a little bit of my noviseness that I took it as a very light. I said, "Okay, it's mentioned in the c- contract that he's provided to provide a supervisor, and as per, you know, the electrical, uh, guidance, you know, there is supposed to be a supervisor there. So it's an easy go for us, so there should not be any issue." But I was really surprised, you know, the, the amount of resistance which the contractor showed, right? Right. So, okay, so they came up with huge emails. They gave a threat of a standstill. They gave a threat of, you know, going to the court, going to the arbitration. So th- then they didn't leave any word, you know, for, for, for this kind of the claims, you know, right? So, um, uh, then one of the ways I could do was, you know, uh, uh, react to, to the situation. Okay. They wanted to go to the court. They wanted to do, to take a, a drastic action. So react to it. I said, "Okay, okay.
22:07Uh, uh, hey, guys, you're free to do whatever you want to do. Okay, this is our position, and we are not moving from here." So that was there. The other way was then actually, you know, this one, um, I just, uh, think, took the things a little bit to the, uh, backside, and then, uh, rebilled them. And then, you know, go back to them with the response that, "Okay, first go to see, look at these clauses." So I reminded them, you know, what are the contract pr- provisions in this one, right? And then, you know, I gave them some examples of all the previous other works have been done by the other similar contractors, which was again an eye-opener for them. And then, you know, with all these things, you know, then, uh, another, uh, thing which I opened was, you know, I started the discussion with the senior management of the contractors. Instead of just staying at the project management level, I involved even the vice president of the company in this discussion, right? So, uh, like usually, you know, I think it's, it's not, you know, his part, because he, he had the background information from his people, and he wanted also money for his company, right? Right.
23:07So he wa- he was, you know, definitely, you know, favoring it. But when he was involved directly from the client, he got the emails, he got the messages, right, he got the director's material. He was participating in the meeting. And when he, when, when he found he didn't have much logical background to back up his claims, you know, immediately his, his, uh, you know... After two, three meetings, uh, we have entirely a change of the scenario, right, you know? So he, he told us, "I'll go back to my team. I'll consult with them." And then he came back. He said, "Okay, you know, we withdraw our, uh, uh, claim." Okay, so right. So things was resolved, right? We continued with the completion of the job. And, um, and, and you know, we do have, you know, very strong relationship with that contractor basically, you know. Right? So it's not like that, you know, that, uh, um, uh, uh, we had one, one, one, one sore point, and then we break up with those people. No, you know. We came out stronger as a, a contracting partner. Great. Right. No, com- completely, right. I mean, there's a lot of... I mean, there's a lot of situation when things like this can happen, but, uh...
24:12And I think this, maybe they didn't have all the backgrounds, and I understand what, what was the situation. But Navdeep, in case that, I mean, how, how would you recommend to handle change orders and claims? Because, I mean, this is a situation when things didn't go well. But how would you recommend to maybe put it inside the contract or maybe just made it clear from, for, for either of the parties on how to handle, uh, either change orders or claims in order to avoid these kind of discussions? Okay, okay. So changes is one another important, very important area, I'll say very important area in, in, in our contracting business, right? So we all know and we heard about this change is the most permanent thing. Changes are inevitable, right? Right. And, um, mm, I'll give you one funny... Le- let me start with one funny example here, you know. Okay.
25:06When I started my, uh, one of, one of my early jobs, you know, uh, the, the department director there, he told me, you know, he said, "Okay, these are the contracts going on, so I want you to make a presentation for senior management how to avoid the claims and changes and claims." Right? So, so I was very happy on this assignment. I said, "Okay, I got a very challenging assignment." I made some, you know, start, uh, the, and this will really help the company, right? Okay. And then, you know, I start working on it. I did, uh, start digging materials here in the contract, other reference materials, some previous work which has been done. And then all of a sudden, I found one presentation which has been done five years before by one other guy on the same subject. Okay? So that was an eye-opener to me that, okay, you know, that, uh, I'm not going to end this thing here, you know? So it's, it's like, you know, ongoing, you know, ongoing war between the contractors and the owners, right? So that was, you know, like, you know, I, I could make a really, you know...
26:04Okay, I'm not going to solve this problem permanently. But at the same time, we can't turn a blind eye to it. We need to work on this one in a conscious way. So that was, you know, really, you know, it was a open, uh, perspective, opening my perspective to this reality of the life. Changes do happen. We do want to avoid these changes. We do have to make an effort to this one. It's an ongoing effort, but still we have to accept it. They will come, and we'll have to accept them as part of our life, right? So, uh, coming to the second part of your question, which is, you know, how to handle this change order and the claims, you know, right? So every organization now, you know, they have different, as you said before, you know, some of them, they have their written charters. Some of them, you know, they have the change process. Those organizations, I think the things go much more smoother, where you have a contract management or the project management procedures and, you know, um, contract management, maybe it's, it's a part of the co- project management. And then they have a really well-defined change process i- is there, right?
27:03So most of our organizations I worked, we, we had some change process, but it's, again, it was like a dynamic document, live document where we kept on updating and changing, right? So if you have those documents, they really help you, right? So I'll recommend, you know, most of the organizations to make sure they do have these documents. If you don't have it, like what, you know, Marc noted before, you know, either use your own people or use a third party consultant- Mm-hmm. Right... to get some documentation done for you, you know. And especially, you know, these internet days, you know, things are much more easier. Before, you wanted to find somebody local whom you can meet, talk, and this thing. But these days, th- this remote connectivity has made the life much more easier. Sitting in one, uh, east part of the world, you can get a consultant do everything for you from the west, right? So, uh, uh, that's, you know, uh, one thing you know, which is a basic start for handling any change order or claims. You need to have proper documentation, proper process in your, uh, in your place, you know. Right?
28:04Other, uh, uh, I will just, uh, s- name few, uh, steps, processes, you know, from my experience which I come, you know. Sure. So I'll just highlight few of the, uh, things which, uh, points I'll say. I'll name five of them. Steps for resolving change orders. First thing will be study and prepare yourself, right? Okay. Again, again, I'm talking about the basic things, basic fundamental things, but, uh, sorry to say, many people, including me, we do forget this part, you know. So studying, being, being, preparing yourself for this one is, is the most important thing when you, when you go, want to go for a change, right? Okay. Right. And, uh, w- when, when you have this change and, and the claims, so both parties, they first, you know, they... I- it's good actually to announce your, uh, you know, either through emails or something that, you know, you are straightforward, your professional approach, and honesty, and you are honest and integrate i- i- in your approach, right?
29:00So that, you know, other party knows what you're doing is, is basically is your contractual right to put the claim or your contractual right to reject that claim, right? So it's, it's, it's good to st- uh, put on the table what your thoughts are, right? And, um, another thing, you know, which, uh, is, uh, uh, important is when you go for, you know, these discussions when you, when you want to handle this one, any change order, you should be, you know, part of the preparation is you should know what are your alternatives. So it's, th- there's a terminology called BATNA, B-A-T-N-A. So that means, you know, best alternative to negotiated agreement. So this basically, you know, when you go for... it's like, you know, you're soul searching. You want to see, what are my negotiated agreements can be? And if I don't reach this, what else I can, uh, what are other options avail- available with me, right? So now it's something like that, you know. If I'm, uh, going to reject the claim, right? Yeah. So one of the things is happen is the contractor may stop the work. Do we have a standby? Do I have my own team? Do we have a second contractor in this case?
30:02If I don't have it, a- and, and I know the contractor is an adamant contractor, he, they may stop the work. So I may not go to that drastic step in, right? Okay. So, and but if you know, you know, okay, the contractor is really, if I accept it, okay, then it's going to start a bad chain. And, uh, even if I accept now for the sake of cooperation, but it'll start a bad chain. So then y- y- you may have to say, uh, to put a, uh, my firm foot here, right? So those kind of, you know, this one, the preparation work is good for this one, right? And next part is, you know, this one, the, uh, communication, right? So communicate, communicate, communicate. And the very important part of the communication is, you know, to don't let the communication die, right? Sure, right. So sometime what happens when you're talking, when you're, even your phone or on the emails, you know- You, you put something or you reach to a po- position where things go to a dead-end. So I always avoid to, you know, put my email in a, my, my messages in a way which can close the road, you know? Right? So we always, in this contracting business, we need to keep the road and the options open.
31:06So be careful in your approach when you want to keep the communication line open, right? Even if other party has closed it, you're not, uh, don't be, uh, on, on this ego, right? So this what my second point is, you know, always you, uh, handle the situation on the principle basis, not on the personal approach, right? So don't bring yourself to the, to this... You, you're doing it, but don't bring yourself to this, uh, changes, you know. Right. Right. Try to keep the communication as smooth as possible. Yes. And don't give your, your personal, your ego, your personality, right, your own feelings to it. Keep it as objective as possible, right? When you take the things personally, no- normally, it spoils the situation, you know. Sometime personal relationship, personal relationship helps, but bringing your personal, your... When, when, when I say personal, that means your, like, you bring your ego, like you bring your, you know, your, your, your, your personal choices.
32:03That kind, you know, th- that kind of situation, things can go haywire, you know. That, you know, you may reach to a more sore points with your, uh, contracting partners. Right, or the negotiation might take just way longer. Well, exactly. Yeah. You know. Yeah. No, I, I think that those are, you know... I mean, Navdeep, usually we ask folks at the end of the, the, uh, conversation to, to give us one or two bullets on, on, you know, let's... What are the main takeaways that you want people to get from this episode? And I think you just gave us five great ones, so I don't even have to ask you that question. But I, I did I did wanna ask you, you one more thing, and, and this is just more so around, you know, the types of technology that you've used in your current role and at, at previous employers, you know, when it comes to contracts. Um, uh, you know, as far as, as contract life cycle management goes, h- have you, have you seen any benefits? I mean, have you used manual methods? Have you used CLM tools? You know, do you have any, any suggestions for folks out there that are, are maybe starting to look to invest in technology on, on how they start that process? Okay. Yeah.
33:06Uh, I think, you know, your question is a, a good question again. You know, you're talking about technology. And, uh, w- uh, I started my career when we were using the hard copies of the contracts. Mm-hmm. We used to have signatures for signatures. We used to have a contract book of 2,000 sheets where each and every page used to be initialed, right? Right. And signing a contract used to be a ceremonial process with 10 people- ... working in the background preparing the book and, you know A whole afternoon just for signing 200 pages. Well, yes. Th- th- th- one afternoon for signing the 200 pages, you know, and, uh, people clapping when the people are signing. But now we have come to I've got- A bottle of champagne... yeah, opening, opening a champagne, you know, when, when you have two vice president, two presidents signing the contract, you know. We have reached to a situation where we have, you know, this one, the hundreds of millions of contracts being signed digitally without a cake being thrown to the people, you know Mm. Okay.
34:02So digitalization has really helped a lot. Things are, are much more faster in the life. I have, you know, seen a lot of transition in my life, you know, going right, you know, from the big computers to this, uh, uh, you know, fully, uh, fully automated where, you know, uh, I, I will say in my... Like in ATCO when I joined, we used to have hard copies, we used to have big filing cabinets, and currently now I've been working from home for last one and a half year, and we have been surviving without a single sheet of paper, you know. Right. Right? So that's the amount of, you can see the, you know, just feel the digitalization, how much it has helped us, you know. So we are dealing still with the contracts. We, uh, still even with the subcontractors. We are, we now still have all the processes going on. But, uh, with the technology, we have been able to manage this. And in the technology, I think, uh, my experience, you know, the, Marc, what you asked about this one, um, um, I have, uh, more experience actually, you know, using this one, the, uh, the, the, the Cloud and the SharePoint, right?
35:00Okay. Great. So we are, you know, OneDrive and the SharePoint. We have been using a SharePoint. SharePoint we used, you know, a lot, you know, in my organization. CLM, you know, I am been s- I'm studying this issue now, CLM. So recently I got some familiarity with the CLM, and I'm really, you know, getting excited about the CLM because, uh, this, the, the contract life cycle management software, I found, you know, this really helps to manage contracts more effectively. It's increasing the efficiency, streamlining our process and, you know, i- in addition, it's helpful in reducing the risk for, uh, for the parties, right? Uh, it's giving us a standardization from the start till the finish of the project and reducing the need of the manual task, and, um, uh, giving us a really very good automation where we can, you know, work with the, us and the contractor together. And for sure, simplification, right? So w- which is the evident benefit.
35:54There is a cost added to it, but, uh, my initial survey of this one is, you know, I believe the cost is, uh, benefits are much higher than the cost. Yeah. But, so I'm, I'm still studying more about the CLM for introduction of CLM in my company, right? But meanwhile, you know, for, for my personal, uh, uh, exposure so far, any company who was thinking about it, I would really recommend them to, you know, go there, go study. We are lucky that, you know, there are a lot of people who are supplying this software. You know, it's not the, uh, it's not a monopoly area that only one or two companies are available. So there are different companies who can meet your requirement. So it'll be good to study and, you know, choose the one which fits best to your budget and to your system. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, absolutely. I think, you know, there's, uh, three, three takeaways there. Again, I mean, be present in the demos. Uh, make sure to, to read the website and, uh, and understand, you know, what the system can do.
36:51So, uh, I think we can apply those, those takeaways in all different facets of, of, uh, of our daily life. So, uh, Navdeep, this has been a wonderful conversation and, um, you know, uh, if, if folks wanna connect with you or, or learn more about, you know, your, your past roles, uh, where can they find you and connect with you? Okay. So to connect me, you know, I think you can connect me on the, my LinkedIn profile. You can connect me through my LinkedIn profile. Or, you know, uh, if you want, I can, uh, just say my, my email address is navdeep.gulati@atco.com. So I'll just repeat my email address. Navdeep, N-A-V-D-E-E-P dot G-U-L-A-T-I@atco.com. So I can be connected on this email or on my LinkedIn profile. Most welcome. Anyone can connect me. You want to share your experience, you want to share your own knowledge, right? So I'm happy to be connected with the community. And- That's great, Navdeep. So thanks a lot again for all your recommendations, all your tips.
37:52I'm pretty sure that a lot of our audience might find, will find it really helpful, and we really appreciate to have you on the show again, Navdeep, and hope to have you again soon. Thank you very much, Pepe and Marc. You know, I really appreciate you guys coming and approaching me to be on your show, and, uh, I'm available. All right. Thanks, Navdeep. Thank you.