The Current State of Legal Ops- Susan Packal

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0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now, here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Today, joining us from Sneak is the VP of legal ops, Susan Packel. Thanks for being here, Susan. We're, we're really excited to, uh, to have you on. Uh, before we flip things over to Pepe so he can give us a- an idea of what we're gonna be chatting about, uh, Susan, we'd love to, uh, learn a little bit more about your background. Sure, sure. So, um, I spent like the first 15 years of my career in, uh, law firms in the DC area, and, um, was able to make the switch to more operational, uh, in director of administration roles. Um, but definitely, you know, my first career was HR. That's where I, that's where it all began.

0:58And as I shifted more into operations, I had the opportunity to finally move out of law firms and into the corporate space, um, where I was with Hilton for five years, and that's really my first building legal operations function from scratch. Uh, and it's all been history since then, uh, where I've repeated that at, at, uh, some other big companies you might have heard of. Awesome. And I'm currently at Sneak, and I've been here, I'm on week, uh, week eight as of this week. All right. Two months already there. Yeah, right? So it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be an exciting episode, Susan, because this is going to be all about legal operations, legal ops, right? Because we've seen this in couple of years ago, right? It's becoming to get like a lot of buzz, legal ops, legal operations, but I still think that there's a lot of or- organizations out there, law firms, that they still don't understand what it really means. What are the benefits? How can you start building a team, right? And that's all about what are we, what are, what do we want to talk about in this episode.

2:01But we start, before we start talking about all those details, Susan, how did you get into legal ops? Yeah, so I think that, um, people come, and I'm no different, people come into legal operations from different walks of life, different avenues. And so, you know, where, while I had a, um, a large human resources background that kind of evolved into operations, you know, v- I think peop- I've seen paralegals, uh, you know, end up, uh, in this space. Obviously attorneys, uh, and, uh, you know, end up coming, coming, coming to our side, uh, of legal operations. But really you see folks who are experienced in, you know, putting together, uh, or analyzing process, putting in process improvements. Uh, maybe they've done some really large technology implementations, they've participated there.

2:52Um, but I always find that folks who have had kind of a smattering of some budgeting experience mixed with some operational, um, uh, process improvement, you know, project planning, pr- you know, project managing even, uh, do really, really well in this space. Yeah, and I, and I think, you know, Susan, I think it's interesting, right? That, that, um, I, I think most... Do, do most folks like you come from, uh, a, a legal background when they're going into legal ops, or, or are you seeing, uh, other folks coming from just maybe an operations background? Or like you were, you know, HR, but, but you still had that, that, um, legal knowledge. Do you think that there's other folks coming into the space that, that don't have any legal experience? I think you're starting to see that, uh, a bit more. I would say the majority of the people that I see are still coming from the legal space, and I think that whe- whether you're a Sneak, that is, um, you know, a, a private company that's g- that's growing, or you're a large organization who you might just now be starting to build a legal operations function, you know, typically there's a hesitancy sometimes to, to start building off of someone who isn't coming from that world, from, i- isn't coming from industry.

4:07So I think that w- what I'm seeing now, however, is as legal operations teams build out and you've got like biz ops, you know, business operations and strategy folks who just really want to narrow in on a particular area and work with, you know, you know, a particular executive perhaps, you know, you're starting to see those people come in. I'd say the majority come from, come from legal, but certainly the door is not closed to people coming, bringing in actually just good business strategy and operations experience under their belt. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and, and I think that's, that's interesting, and I, I think, like you said, the more that, um, a department or a specific role matures, um, I, I think the more broad, uh, and easier it is to, to break into. You know, I saw that with, with sales ops when I was working on sales teams in the past, and, um, most of the ops folks originally were from sales, but then they got even more technical, and I think that kind of opened the door to d- different types of people coming into, uh, those positions. Um, so- Exactly...

5:08you know, with, with that said, how do you think, or, or what t- tips would you have for, like you said, maybe, um, let's start with a, a smaller organization that's looking to, to build out this new role. Maybe they have, uh, a couple folks on the legal team, but nobody to really manage their technology, and they're starting to see that, that that's becoming an issue. They're continuously having to reach out to their vendors to, to make updates to their systems. Um, w- what types of tips do you have for, for those types of organizations that are looking to get started with somebody in a legal ops role? Sure. Well, you know, number one is, um, you know, get in touch with CLOC. You know, we- that, that organization is, is, is enormous now. Um, just in the past three years, the growth with the CLOC organization has, i- is amazing. And you see, um, a lot of GCs will also, uh, smaller company G- GCs still attend those conferences and still are very well connected. And so since there's such a large community there, everyone knows someone.

6:08Everyone knows folks. So to be able to te- reach out and say in that, you know, community forum with perhaps some other GCs, "Hey, this is what I'm looking for," they're going to know someone. There will be, uh, you know, suggestions on not only how to build job descriptions for certain roles, but also some steps on roles that you might consider putting in first. But I think most importantly, talking to other industry professionals who can say, "This is, this is what I think you need, I'd recommend," and being able to connect you to other people. I know just in the past, I wanna say, um, three months, I've had a lot of exploratory calls with other GCs who are, you know, who were interested in building a function for the first time and hiring their first operations person, and just, you know, wanting to hear from me what they should look for, you know, what, what, what kinds of skill sets and things like that. So you do see a lot of folks now that are just picking up the phone, so to speak, and reaching out versus just trying to figure it out on your own because there's so much at stake, right, when you're, when you're building this for the first time.

7:10Right. Because this still... It's, it's very new, right? For, uh, in every organization worldwide, right? This is something that people are still trying to understand, and that's a really good tip, like trying to approach the CLOC. They're doing things great. They have a lot of information on, on their website. And, uh, so Suzanne, when... What, what would you say were some of the issues you faced when building your team out, an organization that was global? Like, what, what were your, your first steps when you start, uh, working on legal ops? Yeah. So I think, you know, coming into organizations like that that are already established and they have a global presence, um, I think getting to know who your stakeholders are and reaching out to those folks in your first, you know, 30 days is, is absolutely critical. I think you really can't start planning anything, even though you think you know what probably needs to happen in, in an order that you think is appropriate.

8:11Um, legal operations is, is, is actually, those roles are different from e- for every organization. And I, I think I'm gonna start a new tour or get T-shirts made or something that says, you know, legal operations isn't new anymore. Like, you know, somehow get a... Because it really has been around now for, you know, for 10 years, uh, right? But I think what you're seeing now is the transformation of the role is really changing, and it's no longer just, you know, well, I'm gonna start legal operations function, I'm just gonna go out and hire an e-billing person. You know, it's, it's, it's much more strategic in how GCs are looking at this role now. So, um, back to your question though, I think meeting the, the key stakeholders, doing that listening tour at the beginning, and then the second thing need to turning to is building that, you know, um, connective tissue with the rest of the organization in key roles like business operations, strategy and operations, finance, technology, um, you know, procurement. You know, these are groups that will be, you know... You'll be in pocket with them. You will go to battle with them. You will do projects with them.

9:21You need to understand how they can help you and how you can help them as well. So I feel like the first, easily the first three to four weeks I was at Sneak, it was just back to back every day just meeting folks and kind of, you know, kind of selling legal operations a little bit. What was it? Some people knew, some people really didn't. Finding out what some of their challenges were, and it's invaluable in starting to kind of put together that inventory of what tools are out there as well. Like, you're actually finding out, you know, does the company use a ServiceNow or a Zendesk or Jira? You know, how do they use it? Um, in addition to finding that out from within your own, uh, legal team. But, like, the... I would tot- you know, I think anyone would recommend you doing that before you even, you know, start crafting out one single, uh, mission or plan in a new role like that. And I think the other part of your question, you know, some challenges I've seen is when you get into an organization that is a bit larger, more established, you know, the, you can pretty much assume that your, um, your international, uh, legal team members probably feel somewhat disconnected from what's happening in, in the core, you know, decision-making group, uh, for the legal team.

10:37Not everywhere, but certainly when you, um, you know, you reaching out to your partners in, say, MIA and APJ very early on will pay dividends. Because oftentimes you find their problems are unique. A lot of those people sitting out in region are like mini GCs, right? They're not just out there doing privacy work. They're out there, they've got a- all people in the region coming to them and fending, you know, often dealing with a lot of, uh, high-risk issues. So taking that time to understand what's unique about how they work and what their challenges are will really help you, particularly when you sit down with the GC and say, "Okay, how are we going to communicate as a team? How are we gonna prioritize our initiatives?" You know, ha- those international folks, uh, non-US folks or non-headquarters folks, however you wanna word that, having a voice and, and being heard is critical and, and it's just good, good business sense. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, I mean, it's smart for anybody to do in any position when you're new at a company is you have to really understand The people that you're gonna be working with, the processes, the software.

11:43Um, and, you know, I, I kind of brought up a new question for me, Susan, as far as the technology that maybe a, a, a new company that you're working with is using. You know, how do you go about e- evaluating their tech stack and, and how quickly once you get in there are you possibly looking to make changes to that tech stack if you notice that there is a hole? Yeah. So I think it depends on, on the size of the organization, right, and the nimbleness of the organization, um, kind of what role do you have in legal operations. You know, are you tied directly to an operating budget, um, where you can tap into that and, and start building business case and sort of understand what you have to work with? Um, some roles do, some roles don't. Um, but, you know, in, in my case, in a lot of the experience that I've had, um, a couple of examples where I've, like, walked right into a technology implementation, like week one. You know, you walk into it, and there hasn't been anyone from legal operations, and you are now thrust front and center running that project.

12:40So while that's not, you know, making the decision on the technology at that time, you certainly are responsible for executing on it. So that's always fun and, you know, keeps us on our toes. Uh, but, you know, I would say depending again on size and nimbleness of the organization, you could find yourself, you know, within a few months determining that, you know, look, i- implementing a legal one front door, you know, w- because you wanna get people off email aliases and Slacks, uh, for how they're taking in legal intake, you know, their intake of legal requests, you may determine, like, that's the biggest bang for your buck. And so that could be something fairly easy to implement, uh, for you. So I know, you know, my, my record on a, on a technology implementation is two months, and it was a legal RFP, uh, legal RFP tool. It was extremely easy and nimble. I talk about them all the time.

13:32Um, but they are just an example of, like, sort of a low-hanging fruit to implement a, you know, even with a few key groups within legal, how they engage with outside counsel, and that can end up saving you money very quickly. That's low-hanging fruit. That's showing value and, um, you know, starting to get you some reportable metrics. So things like that, picking and choosing, it doesn't always have to be a six, nine, 12-month, you know, planning and technology implementation. Like, things, things move much, much quicker now than they did five, six, seven years ago. Yeah. And, and I think that that's the, the great thing about the space that we're in now, is there are all different types of tools out there that if you need a point solution, you can find a point solution that you can implement quickly. Uh, and especially with SaaS now, you know, maybe you only use it for a year or two, but if it solves that immediate problem- Yes... that you have, you know, that might be the best fit for your organization at that time.

14:27And, you know, we speak with folks all the time where we, we tell them straight up, "You know, what we sell probably is not the best fit for what your organization needs right now. Um, you know, sure, can we do what you're looking for? Absolutely. But there might be a smaller, cheaper tool out there that can do exactly what you need, and, you know, come back around to us in, in another year or two once you've grown and, and your needs have changed." Um, so it's always- That, you sound like an awesome, awesome- ... uh, partner. I, I'd love to hear more of that. That's great. I'm making a note so that we can talk about that later. Perfect. No, but that's great. That was what I was going for. That's such a, that's such a good, that's just such a good way to build trust because, you know, the side tangent, I will say, like, I can't do my job well without some of my key partners, and I've, I've taken them from organization to organization with me, have been very loyal. Um, you know, and I think that the, just like your, what you just said is such a great way to start building that sort, a long-term relationship with these business partners. Yeah. It's great.

15:28Yeah, no, and I mean, that's even more important, right? The people that are surrounding you are, are even more vital than, than the softwares that you're using, um, because- 100%. 100%, I agree with that... can't really change the way a, uh, uh, one of your colleagues is implemented. It doesn't really work like that, um. Right. Right. But no, I, I think that's, that's great, and it, it's very cool to see that you are able to, to bring folks with you as you go from organization to organization, and I think that speaks volumes about how you're running your shop. So that's very cool. Um, and, and as far as, you know, while we're, we're on the, this topic, as far as legal ops and, you know, finding these new pieces of technology, if, if folks are out there, you know, they're, maybe they're looking for a new CLM tool or a new discovery tool, um, what types of tips could you give them when they're starting to, uh, evaluate vendors? What, what's important to look out for? Well, number one, um, there are far too many.

16:22I mean, you could talk about a few years ago where there weren't enough and there were just a few key players, and those were the only ones you would dare to do business with because you'd heard of them, but now there's lots of even smaller, nimble organizations that, um, were put together, you know, by lawyers for lawyers, uh, or, you know, by legal operations people that went out and built a product because they know exactly where the gaps are in the industry. So there's, it, it's overwhelming, and if anyone, uh, I have no problem admitting, uh, you know, fear and anxiety and being overwhelmed. It is tough. Anyone who says that putting in legal technology or deciding what technology to put in, that they think that's easy is, I just don't know if they're necessarily being candid with you. Um, so I think that, that key things that, that you, you probably aren't news to you but are steps that I think people know but sometimes get pressed into skipping is really taking the time to partner with your technology team or someone in a business process team or even just yourself and really talking to people about what you're trying to solve because there are a lot of times, I would say almost more than 90, I would say 95% of the time if not higher, you'll walk into a situation where a team will tell you, "We need this kind of technology. We, we need this. I've heard that they're good.

17:40That'll solve all of our problems." And if you're new or you're just, you know, in a huge team and you're spread thin, the, the, the Tendency to lean in on that and just, "Oh, great. You already know what you want." You know? And you might do an RFP and a couple of other tool, and before you know it, you're off and running, and then j- a year and a half later you realize, like, you didn't really truly understand what you were trying to solve for. So technology isn't the answer to everything. It is to a lot, but it isn't for everything. So taking that time is really key, and documenting that, and making sure that you understand, uh, what they're really trying to solve, and then really stepping back. This was something that is probably one of the hardest things in the role, is you get sort of those needs and, and pain points and desires from each of your legal functional areas, right? And then you have to sit back and try to tie those together. Where can you gain efficiencies? Where are they facing the same problems?

18:36Because as you know, you can't have five separate, unique tools for privacy and product and litigation. I mean, some of them will, of course, but when you start talking about some bigger issues, you want to leverage existing technology or you want to lever technology that may meet a group ha- 80% of the way, you know? And they've gotta deal with the other 20%, because generally gets the whole team to where they need to be, and that's really tough. That is tough. It takes time. Um, and then the other thing I would say is get out there and talk to people and not be afraid to ask questions. I was just Slacking some, uh, texting someone before this call and found out they're smack in the middle of a CLMS implementation. They're having, um, you know, they're experiencing some challenges that I've seen in the past a lot, and we just discovered that. And so she just, you know, reached out and now I know that's a person who is in it right now who would be a really good resource, or I could be a really good resource for, too.

19:32So again, CLOC is a great way, but connecting, you know, legal, legal ops folks know the legal ops community, uh, to a large degree, and can find you some people to talk to kind of behind the scenes on what to look for in that type of technology implementation, challenges they had. Because I found that other companies are very willing and open to share with you where they fell into holes and ran into challenges so that you don't have to go through them. And I think a mistake is setting it o- setting off on your own thinking you know everything, just working with a consultant, and just sort of doing things in somewhat of a vacuum. Gotta get out there and talk to people. They'll tell you. They'll share their experiences with you. Right. That's one of the main benefits of building your community and being active in organizations such CLOC, or just reach out there and people on LinkedIn, people... I mean, if you- Absolutely... text somebody on LinkedIn, they're probably gonna answer you. It's not like Facebook, that if you're not their friend, they, they won't care, right? Right. Right.

20:34So, Susan, let, let me add something on what, uh, uh, you were talking about, right, on how to find the perfect vendor for what's your project inside your organization, right? And then I- Wait, there's a perfect vendor? The... Wait, I need to... There's a perfect vendor out there? Okay. A perfect match. Right. Right. Let me rephrase that. Yeah. So to find the perfect match to your needs, right? There you go. So, uh, and, and, and one thing that I like that you just said is that you have to talk a lot with the main stakeholders inside the organization. You mentioned a few, right? Procurement, finance, uh, sales. Because I think one of the mistakes that a lot of organizations that, well, especially when they don't have a legal ops team there, is that they think that CLM is only for legal, because they are the ones that own the contract, which is a mistake, right? And, um, when you start to talk with the main stakeholders and, let's say, trying to build your business case, like, what are some of the main KPIs that somebody inside finance or somebody in, say, procurement might be, uh, interested to know when having, uh, CLM implemented in the, in the organization?

21:49Well, I think we can get specific. Like, you know, everyone wants to know turnaround time. Everyone wants to- Yeah... you know, stack their groups against each other to find out, where are contracts getting hung up? I mean, you know, that, we can talk about those specifics. But I think in general is the answer to your question is you don't know what you don't know. So getting out there and talking to sales ops and talking to privacy. You know, maybe they need a way to track DPAs, and that, you know, they will, they have different ideas for how they can demonstrate or, you know, show success. And so getting out there and talking to them and, and defining what that is, that is one of the biggest mistakes you can make if you don't have those conversations earlier on, finding out what kind of data they capture now. Maybe they don't have much at all, and, and you with them, particularly those of us who, um, those of you who have been in the field for quite some time, can add value by, uh, helping them identify, right? And, and helping share things you've done in the past that might be helpful for KPIs for them.

22:45But I think that's the whole key, because I, I have seen some implemen- implementations in the past, just not, th- they haven't failed, but they have not gone over nearly as well when some of the key groups in the company just realize what you've put into place does not help them at all. If anything, it feels like another step or a hindrance, but it isn't even meeting their needs, because no one asked them, right? And particularly when you're talking about sales, I mean, they're one of your, you know, most critical stakeholders. And so building that relationship with sales ops, getting in early and often, you know, with them to find out, is really key, and you'll learn a lot about what, uh, kind of... They have tons of data. They have tons of data. So you'll learn a lot, um, for, uh, how to model some of your other groups in, in bringing that rigor for, for collecting data. But certainly when you talk about the evolution of legal ops, you know, that ability to glean key metrics and data from within your organization to not only show value, but demonstrate and show the health of the organization overall, you know, and the value is One of the most important things now that is needed in this role, and what you'll find is that, you know, when you talk about maybe legal ops being new, what I, I think is more new is that these, these, uh, companies now, every single group within legal is being tasked with show success, define it, show me data so that we can drive better decision-making, every team.

24:22And so what you're finding is some teams, they've just never been asked to do that before. They've never had to think in that way. And since you are there to bring about the, um, change of running legal as a business, you're in the position then to sit down and talk with each team and find out what they're tracking, what they're not tracking, and then help them in ways where they can ki- they can show, uh, their success and progress. It's not, you know, time tracking. It's not, you know, just how many deals we close. It's the value, and it is turnaround time as well. Um, it might be savings that opport- that you've, um, because of a software that was implemented, saved X amount of manual time, attorney time. You can actually figure out what that dollar amount is and show that. But certainly groups that wanna hire and think that they'll solve all their problems by hiring more headcount, which isn't as common, but still happens sometimes, data is your key, and you'll be ex- you are expected to bring that muscle into the organization.

25:23Right. Right. And I think that that can, at the end, also help on user adoption because instead of having, oh, okay, we have another software, we need, uh, more training, now they know the value, right? Yes. Be more eager to start using that kind of software because they know- Yes... how they're gonna help them, right? Yes. Yep. And that, that, you've just touched on that, that change management piece, which as we know, you can't, you can't get a software bro- you know, implemented in your group without that good change management and bringing people along with you. If you think you're just gonna come in, determine what the issue is, find the, the perfect vendor for your company, and roll that out and expect that everyone's just gonna get in line, I mean, that's just not, we all know that's just not reality. No. No, it never is.

26:14And, and that's, you know, a big part of those implementations is making sure that you're partnering with somebody who can get everybody excited inside the organization, make sure that there's user adoption, and that people are actually gonna use the tools that you're buying instead of going back to the old ways, so. Yes. Yes. That's, like, the ultimate nightmare, right? Yeah. Put something in and then everyone just goes back to their Google Sheets. Ugh. Fail, fail. Yes. Yeah. That, that's definitely something that, you know, a lot of folks have to worry about. Thank God during our implementations we don't have to worry about that. But hey, Susan, this has, this has been a fantastic conversation. Um, i- if folks, folks wanna connect with you, maybe they'll, they're coming up with some of the issues that we talked about today, um, where, where would be the, the best place to, to do that? I think reaching out, uh, onto me, uh, reaching out to me on LinkedIn is, is great. Um, I've gotten a lot of, I would say la- just last nine months, a lot of folks who are looking to further their careers and, and wanna talk about, you know, skillsets that they should maybe, or competencies that they need to develop more, and I'm always open for those conversations over coffee or tea or alcoholic beverage of your choice.

27:22Uh, but please, yes, don't hesitate to reach out. I love, love this topic. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Susan, this has been a g- a great conversation. I think there was a lot of takeaways here that, that people are going to really enjoy and hopefully be able to implement. So thanks for joining us, everyone, and we hope to hear, have you back here to hear another episode soon.