The Path Less Taken: Careers in Legal-Tech - Senne Mennes

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00Welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, the show where our guests, and sometimes us, provide best practice recommendations on all things related to contract management. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Today we've got a great episode for you. Senne Meness of, uh, ClauseBase is going to be joining us. And before we dive into some of our topics that we're gonna be discussing today, uh, I'd like to turn things over to Senne so we can get a quick overview of his background. And, uh, then from there, we'll dive into those questions. So Senne, thanks for joining us, and, uh, feel free to take it away. Thanks for having me, Marc. So yeah, hello, everyone. My name is Senne Meness.

0:55I am the co-founder at ClauseBase. Uh, before I joined ClauseBase as a co-founder, I, um, worked in a international law firm, DLA Piper to be specific. I worked in the Brussels department. Um, I studied law in Belgium, did my Erasmus exchange program at the University of Southampton in the UK, also did an LLM program at King's College London, uh, then worked, uh, like I said, as a lawyer for two years. Um, and I worked during the height of the GDPR frenzy, uh, back in 2016 to tw- 2018, which is also how I met my co-founder, Maarten, who was a, um, former lawyer at DLA Piper, worked with us on a, um, an external, or on a project as an external consultant. Um, and we kept in touch after, uh, the project had ended.

1:46Uh, and so, um, when h- he was developing the software and, uh, once the software was ready to be launched commercially, that's when, uh, I jumped on board to, uh, co-found the company. Yeah, that's, that's great and, and super interesting, you know, that, that that's how you found kind of your co-founder. I, I think it's, uh, uh, something that a lot of folks out there is, is you never know who you're gonna go into businesses and, and growing up or, or working with people closely when you're at the beginning of your career. I think that fi- kind of starts a unique bond. Um, so that's, that's pretty cool to hear that. And I, you know, from there, I think it's a great jumping off point to, to discuss one of our topics for today. So, uh, and Senne, you know, you were a junior lawyer, you know, during this time and, and, uh, you were working for two years or so, you know, in that role. Um, and I, I think, you know, some of the audience out there is, is, uh, folks that are, are starting their legal career.

2:38Um, and, and you know, one of the things we wanted to talk about today is, is what that was like for you and, and what type of, um, information or suggestions you could give to, to folks that are, you know, out there and, and starting their career in law as well. Yeah, exactly. So, um, as I mentioned, I, I only worked as a lawyer for two years, so I, I do still kind of consider myself to be something of a, a junior lawyer at heart. Um, purely as an attorney, uh, more or less, my development was halted, uh, at that point in time. So, um, uh, whenever I see, you know, the, the plight of the junior lawyer, I kind of still feel, uh, a lot of kinship there. Um, and so exactly, you know, one of the things that I started noticing once I took a little bit of a step back from my position as junior lawyer and started looking from the outside in, so to speak, um, as I talked to different law firms, different in-house legal departments as well, uh, from my position as a, as a legal tech vendor, what I noticed was that, uh, junior lawyers are not really being prepared for what their work will look like in the future.

3:46Um, and I also think that there's this pervasive feeling among young lawyers that they are often left to their own devices. Uh, at least when I talk to, uh, colleagues and friends, I, I definitely saw that I, I wasn't alone, um, in this. Now, of course, you know, different law firms have different approaches. Uh, obviously, uh, some law firms do a lot more investment into, um, specific technology or sp- specific processes that, that support junior lawyers and, and support lawyers in, in, in general. Um, but on average, uh, especially where I'm from, from, in, in Belgium, um, there is still, uh, a lot of progress to be made in the legal sector when it comes to, you know, knowledge management, knowledge deployment, and the, the support that a law firm can offer to, um, junior lawyers. And so when I look at how the, how, how lawyers are essentially asked to, you know, continue, um, their work as, as it has always been done in the past, I feel like there is this typical sort of reinventing the wheel kind of feeling that is, that is out there that a lot of, uh, lawyers can, can probably relate to.

4:58I, I myself, for example, uh, did a lot of conte- contract drafting when I was a lawyer. Um, and, uh, and of course, as a document automation, uh, technology provider, I- I'm still very much involved in, in that kind of process and, and I definitely look at how law firms tackle that. Um, and what I've experienced was, was always, you know, an e- experience that a lot of lawyers can, can relate with, which is essentially, you know, you, you as a junior lawyer start working with a senior lawyer or a partner and they say, "Okay, we're doing this new project for this new client, and we have this, um, contract that needs to be closed." And if you're lucky, you know, the partner will say, uh, "Here are four or five different documents that we've kind of done in th- that we've done in the past that were kind of similar. Um, so use those as your sort of, um, base documents, use them as inspiration."

5:51And then inevitably, uh, you know, you find one of those four to five documents, which is the one that you're going to be using as your, your jumping off point. Um, but then inevitably You don't really have the right content right away, and so you have to start knocking on doors of other associates. You have to start, um, looking in your own inbox maybe for projects that you've done in the past. Um, a lot of law firms obviously also have document management systems, but maybe a lot of them aren't really geared towards this reuse of that knowledge. Maybe they're just, you know, storage, um, and they don't allow you to really search on certain keywords, but more on, on clients and matters and things like that. And of course, if, if you don't know, uh, which client or which matter you're supposed to be looking for, uh, then, then that is not really of, of much help. Um, and so that process is, is hugely time-consuming, um, and it's, it's also repetitive. It's, it's always the same thing. You're always going through the same motions.

6:50Um, and to me, it, it seemed a little bit weird that, you know, the f- uh, a law firm is essentially a, an organization that professionally puts out knowledge. Um, and it tries to deliver that knowledge in as, um, a client-friendly a way as possible and as, and as exhaustive a way as possible as well. Um, but it's putting out this knowledge every day that is, to a certain extent, ephemeral. So it's, it's kind of in the mind of, uh, associates who worked on it. Um, it doesn't get stored anywhere centrally. Like, for example, if I go back to the, the example of, of how a junior lawyer approaches the contract drafting process, uh, what you'll, what you'll see is that, you know, I get my four or five template documents. Um, I have this, this one clause that I really need, like a very aggressive confidentiality clause or something because that's something that's dear to our client's heart.

7:44Um, and then in none of the template documents that I, that I have, um, does, does a clause like that appear. So I have to start knocking on doors. I have to ask people about the different, um, documents that they have lying around. I have to ask, "Oh, hey, do you have, like, a, a clause like that lying around? Do you remember doing something like this?" And then if I'm lucky, I'll, I'll find, uh, a clause like that. But then it's still this entire exercise of making sure that this, this clause fits the new document that I'm inserting it into. So I need to make sure that all the terminology is correct, that the styling is correctly applied, that certain grammatical issues are taken care of. Like, for example, you may have, um, uh, an agreement where there's multiple party or multiple purchasers, for example, and then you need to make sure that, um, you know, the necessary grammatical conjugations are made and all those, all, all of those things. Um, and so that exercise is, is something that, you know, doesn't get stored anywhere centrally, and, and you build that up. You build that experience as a lawyer.

8:41But, um, as a junior lawyer who's going through these motions for the first time, um, it's always a trial and error process. It's always, uh, something where you, um, waste a lot of time on, which of course is also something that clients don't really appreciate, um, especially in the beginning. And so, yeah, that's, that's where I was, was coming from a lot of the times, which is also what, what drew me to ClauseBase a lot because, as I explained, my, my co-founder, Maarten, uh, was actually already developing the software in, in stealth mode, uh, before we launched, uh, the, the company itself together. And so, um, I feel like, you know, without, uh, going too much into sales mode, obviously, um, I feel like that, uh, the way that Maarten had approached the, the process, uh, definitely sort of, um, talked to me in a way that, that I could definitely understand and that I could, could appreciate because the problems that were being solved there, and actually just the problems that document automation can solve in, in, in any form or in any, in any, uh, different way is, is something that, um, you know, assuages those concerns in a lot of different cases. Um, and so I feel like not just document automation, but a lot of these tools that focus on, uh, automating rote tasks or automating, you know, sort of menial tasks, uh, are ways in which junior lawyers are essentially presented with an opportunity.

10:15Um, in a lot of c- cases, you'll see that, uh, partners aren't really willing to put a lot of time and effort into either using these tools or optimizing these tools for use by the firm itself. And so I feel like junior lawyers need to realize that there is this exclusive role that's just laid out. The red carpet is essentially laid out for them, um, and there's this, this way in which that they can offer unique value to the firm, um, and be more than just, you know, the, the, the fungible cog in the machine that, um, I know some lawyers definitely feel, uh, like they, they might be, um, when you compare, you know, what, what one lawyer can, can bring in terms of unique value to what, uh, another lawyer, um, uh, can bring. And so knowing that these, these, um, this new way of working presents a real opportunity to, to lawyers, um, I feel like lawyers need to kind of look at these tools and, and see, you know, what problems am I interested by, uh, especially what solutions do I see to solve these problems, um, and how can I sort of, you know, step up and, and make that, that unique contribution?

11:29How can I g- uh, set myself up for success now, but also, you know, build the foundations for what my career is going to be looking like in, in, in five to 10 years? Uh, a funny little anecdote on that front maybe. One of the firms that we're currently talking to teaches its, its new managing associates, so one step up from the, the junior level, that if they are following in the footsteps of what their partners or their, their senior lawyers have done before them, then, you know, just stop immediately. Um, there's, there's no way that you can, uh, continue in that business. There's no way that you can, uh, really Make your stamp on the sector, so to speak, by just doing what has always been done, especially in this, this era of rapid change and of course, of also of rapid opportunities. Yeah. There's a lot of things that you can... that, well, that not even law firms, but also in-house departments can, can work in order to just save a lot of time, right?

12:28Now that you're telling some of your stories, I remember my early days working at law firms, it was exactly the same. You have a system of knowledge management where they have all the different documents and whatever. Uh, partner ask one of the junior a- associate to start drafting the first document. Okay, you have couple of templates, and then you remember maybe one... if you have couple of months or years working at the firm, you've been working in different deals, right? And maybe you remember, "Okay, yeah, you know what? I remember that I have a clause with that kind of wording that I might use for this one." And then it takes another hour looking in your inbox to the communication with the, uh, with the, with the client or the, or the counterparty in these negotiations. So you can take that clause and put it on the first draft of the contract, right? And, and I think...

13:19and, and not, not only that, the other thing is that even in, if you have a template of a deal that the law firm have been worked couple of months or, or years ago that you're going to use as a model for this first contract, you gotta read all the documents so there is no trace of the name of another client, right? That's the other thing, because that's one of the most, uh, common issues of junior associates or interns, that they send the first draft, but they forgot to read, to read the document two times, and they left the name of another client there, and that's a huge thing that- Exactly... I mean, the partner is not going to take it, like very, very, very lightly. And so Senem, there's a lot of things that I would say that a junior lawyer can do, but now that we're talking about that you were working two years in this law firm, do you think there are some kind of, um, let's, let's call it, um, training or abilities or any other kind of software that not, not even a lawyer, but a student should be looking at before start working at, at a law firm that that might bring an added value to their work inside the firm?

14:37Like, any kind of software that they start to looking at or any other kind of, uh, maybe website where they can learn a, a little bit more on the tools that are out there that they can use on the, uh, ins- inside their work. What would you re- re- recommend, uh, a law school student or a first-year associate? Yeah, that's actually a very good question. Um, and my, my answer may be surprising to some, but, uh, honestly, it's Microsoft Word. Um, I think a lot of lawyers kind of assume just because of course they spend a lot of time in Microsoft Word, even when they are, uh, still at law school, you know, writing papers, writing dissertations, and things like that. A lot of lawyers assume that they really know Microsoft Word. Um, and then the reality is that, you know, a lot of lawyers aren't really trained to, to work with Microsoft Word, don't know how styling works. Uh, sometimes, you know, I, I, I automate, uh, documents for clients of ours or do, like, a proof of concept projects, um, for, for prospects. And, and I see that there's hard-coded numbering in those documents.

15:38So where, where the lawyers don't really know how cross-referencing works in, in Microsoft Word. Um, we, we sometimes also do these little sort of Word courses, uh, in law firms, um, because my, my co-founder Maarten is, is kind of a, a Word expert. And, um, and what we sometimes see there is, is astounding, where, you know, the, the formatting brush, for example, um, is, is received to, to oohs and aahs from, from the people in the room just because they're, they have... they're not familiar with the fact that you can copy formatting from one heading or, uh, paragraph to, to another. Um, and without drawing the, uh, discussion into too much, you know, how can tech, um, make a difference, even though Microsoft Word obviously is, is technology, um, I feel like that would be step number one.

16:31And, and that, that added value, that added benefit that lawyers can offer with more, um, you know, thorough grounding in, in certain technology. Like if, if a lawyer, for example, really works himself into a certain, uh, decision tree builder tool or a document automation tool or a contract review tool, you know, really, uh, steps up as like the, the, the, the product owner within the team or within the, um, the firm, um, that's, that's terrific. Of course, that will mean that that lawyer can make, uh, sort of a unique impact. But we already see that sort of scenario play out with the few associates that really know Word in depth. Um, and what you see there is, is, is actually quite, it's quite funny from time to time, where if, if te- if a team doesn't have a document production team, like for example, a lot of international law firms have this, this document production team where you can just, you know, draft your contract and then just send it over to document production and say, "Okay, please clean this up a little bit and make sure formatting is consistent," and everything like that. If, if a, a law firm doesn't have that team, then what you'll see is that this one lawyer, um, is responsible for making sure that, um, for example, numbering that jumps up and down and, and all over the place, or cross-references that don't work, or table of contents that, that can be, uh, entered into the, the, the documents.

17:52All of those little typical Microsoft Word problems, the, the junior lawyer then, uh, takes those, uh, takes care of those. And, and of course, you, you create, um, unique value there. You're, you're, um, in a way making yourself sort of irreplaceable. And now, what would be, like, the next step? Like, okay, let's go back to the basics, because maybe if you know how to use Microsoft Word well- You're gonna work, I mean, you're, you're gonna save a lot of time there. But now taking the next step, like document automation, and I completely agree with you that some of the times a lot of the partners, they are just way too busy or they charge $1,000 an hour, and maybe for them it's, like, too much time and money to spend on training. But what do you think would be, like, the next step? Yeah. That's, uh, that's a very good question. So the next step indeed would be to start looking at tools to solve certain specific problems. Um, I always caution people not to, you know, look for the shiniest piece of technology that you can get your hands on, but really start from the problem that you're trying to solve.

18:56Um, and so for example, if you are a litigation lawyer, you know, you have different issues, you're, you're confronted with different problems than if you are- Right... a trans- transactional lawyer. And so try to see, you know, from, from file to file what keeps popping up again, what- what's, um, causes you to waste a lot of, um, time that is not really valuable. And so from, from that point on, uh, exactly like you mentioned, document automation is obviously a, a tool that deserves looking into. A contract review obviously has a lot of, uh, very good use cases as well. Um, decision tree builders obviously to, to, uh, sort of automate certain legal advice, uh, very good use cases. Um, and from that point on, it's really just a matter of, um, trying those tools out. I think most tools on the market currently offer some sort of free package for, for students especially, uh, but also for, for young lawyers who j- who are just interested in, in doing, like, a trial version or just testing it out, see what can be done there.

20:00Um, and, uh, use that as a, as a stepping stone to, to increase, um, your skills even further and, and, and really make something that you would like to use, uh, in your own practice. Right. Yeah, so you know, I, I think that that's super helpful for anybody out there who's, you know, definitely looking to expand on their skills that they have and then trying to get an understanding of what's gonna be important as they move into the future. And I, I also think, you know, during this discussion, we have a unique opportunity here to kind of talk about your path from, from working, you know, on the legal side of things and, and migrating into tech. I think that that's a newer path and a newer approach that, that more folks, you know, our age or, or even younger are, are starting to consider just, consider just because there are those opportunities out there to, um, either join a, a startup or, or even, you know, be that first person like, like your partner was, you know, gener- actually creating a, a, a software application. So I mean, how, how did you know or, or when did you know that that was kind of the path that you wanted to take? You wanted to take more of a unique approach.

21:00You didn't want to stay, you know, specifically in legal, but you wanted to get into legal tech. Yeah. A very good question. So I would love to tell you that ever since I was a little boy, I have always dreamed of document automation, and I was just waiting for my opportunity. Uh, but unfortunately, that is not the case. So, um, I was kind of dead set on, on being a lawyer. I, I wouldn't say I was interested in, in the partner track necessarily. Um, but for example, the bar, bar courses or the, the traineeship, so to speak, in Belgium here is three years, so I didn't really finish that. And, and that was actually kind of a, a priority of mine at the outset. Um, and then you run into these issues that I explained from time to time. You know, you run into the, the fact that you're, uh, you, you feel guilty from time to time as well, where you're basically costing a client a lot of money, and you realize that you're investing that time into a lot of stuff that you didn't really go to law school for. Um, a lot of my time was just spent battling Microsoft Word, um, and, and that wasn't really offering any, any value.

22:08Um, and so once you face those issues a little bit, you know, that, that starts kind of wearing on you. And, um, like I said, you know, my co-founder, Martin, was an external consultant to, um, a project that we were doing at the firm. And so we, we worked together very closely, uh, over the course of more than a year. Um, I had discussed some of those concerns with him as well, and he, and he, you know, um, confirmed that, that he had felt those as well, which is why he had begun development of the tool. And really, the, the tipping point for me to where I knew that, you know, this was something that I wanted to do was when, um, Martin first presented the, uh, the software to me. Uh, when I saw what it could do and, and, and, uh, when I started looking into document automation a little bit myself and just starting exploring those opportunities, 'cause at that time, especially in Belgium, legal tech wasn't really on anyone's radar just yet. Um, I think legal design definitely was, was something that was up and coming.

23:06I, I remember, um, a few months before I, I left my position at, at, uh, my law firm, um, I remember, uh, you know, just, just sort of studying up a little bit on, on that. Um, but when I was kind of confronted with, uh, the, the impact that st- tools like document automation can make and, and sort of the, the way that you can really, uh, put your stamp on the sector, um, that was kind of really what inspired me to, to make that leap and, and start to, well, first and foremost, really start considering legal tech as a, uh, as a career. That's, that's a, that, that's a very good point for people that are maybe not just starting, but maybe that they already started their career because I think the most classic way is that there are only two paths. May- well, maybe three paths for, uh, for, uh, for, for somebody s- that's studying law, right? It's either going to a law firm, going to a company, or going to academy perhaps, right? There's, there's also a third way.

24:07And, and, and now that there's, like, an open new space that it's technology, and I mean, you don't have to know how to code, right? Or, or, or, or maybe just know, like, uh, maybe the basics so you can understand, right? Because I think- Now that, well, you're a lawyer, and I think one of, one of the good things is that you know the pain points of lawyer, and it's, and it's, in, in some of, some of the times, developers and lawyers don't work together because lawyers thinks, uh, a developer can work magic and they can do whatever they want. "Okay, so can you put the bottom there? Can that, once I click on them, it, it just pops a window where I can put another flow?" And it's just like, man, no. You, you have to understand some of the logic behind of the software. And I think there's also been a lot of this, the discussion inside, uh, law schools, right? On what should be included inside the, the, the curriculum of a lawyer.

25:04In your experience now that you took this path of working on legal tech, do you think coding might be, or maybe just the basic might be useful for somebody that is in interesting on taking the same path as you? Um, absolutely. Useful, yes. That said, I am very conscious of the, uh, the amount of free time that the average lawyer has, which is to say not all that much. So I do realize that, you know, a lot of lawyers aren't, uh, really looking to make these huge commitments, and, and it is a huge commitment to, uh, to start coding. Um, I mean, you can, you can sort of limit yourself to certain elements, but there's always going to be more, um, you know, surface to scratch, so to speak. And so I, I definitely believe that having basic notions of programming kind of alters your brain for the better. Um, we've actually also written a, um, a short article on that.

26:05Um, in the sense that it, it helps you to kind of consider the ways in which you, um, need to change certain legal texts as well. Like for example, in, in, in a lot of ways, the, the way that the average lawyer's brain works has a lot of similarities to the way that the average developer's brain works. Um, if I am drafting a license agreement, and if I say somewhere in that license agreement, "Okay, the, um, license is exclusive," so there's an exclusive, um, uh, agreement between the licensor and the licensee, then I know that I don't just need to change the word non-exclusive to exclusive, for example, in my, in my base document. I know that there are other clauses that can be altered because I am rearranging the scope of, of that document a little bit. And so I know that clauses need to interact with each other. I, I, I have that, that knowledge where I say, "Okay, I need... I, I adjust clause number two, but maybe now I also need to adjust clause number 15.8 and 17.12."

27:07And that sort of if/then thinking is something that is, that is common to both lawyers and, and, uh, and developers. Um, that said, what a lot of people think when they start learning how to code is, is they say, "Oh, I'm going to make my own app," um, and/or, "I'm going to create my own, my own legal service and it's gonna be great." And, and, and in a lot of cases, it, it can be. But because you do have that, that, that domain knowledge and you know what the problem is like and so you have a better feel for what the solution should look like. But, um, there is more to creating an actual legal service or creating an, an app or something like that than just learning how to develop. You know, there's all sorts of, uh, frameworks that you need to be familiar with. There's, there's, uh, servers that you need to create, and, and things like that. And so, um, a lot of people bite off more than they can chew when they start actually coding.

28:00Uh, but if you are familiar with the basics or if you familiarize yourself with the basics, um, I definitely see that as a worthwhile investment of your time. And there are a lot of online co- courses out there free or just for a couple of bucks that you can buy out there. But what would you, what would be like any, any kind of language that you think would be, like, interesting to start with? Yeah. Um, so yeah, there are several beginner languages, like, for example, like Python and, and JavaScript are, are obvious, um, popular, uh, computer languages. Um, I think it, it kind of depends on, you know, what you're trying to achieve. I think it's, it's fairly important to, to have a goal for, for what you're trying to do. Um, and different languages will have, um, will be better suited to different, uh, things that you're trying to achieve. Um, I also think that if it's, if it's really, you know, not just a, a brain expanding exercise that you're after, if you're, if you're really looking to create something very specific, uh, then it's, then it's pays to look at certain tools that already exist and that offer you a lot of freedom in, in doing so, and there's a lot of low-code and no-code tools out there, uh, nowadays that can help you, um, to, to create these kinds of tools.

29:18Obviously, typically, when you look at, at no-code tools, the learning curve is obviously much lower, but there's also more limitations to what you can actually do with it. Uh, if you go to low-code, there's obviously a bit of a, a larger learning curve, but there's also more possibilities there. And if, and if low-code tools can't really offer you what you need to, to, to build what you want to build, then it definitely makes sense to, um, uh, take a look at coding. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think, you know, I mean, with that, with all that said, right, I mean, there's also different avenues and, and different routes that you can explore if you're looking to get into legal tech, but, but you don't wanna get into the coding aspect, or, you know, maybe you're not as technical of a, a person as that. But I, I do think, you know, at least being able to talk the talk, not you don't need to be able to walk the walk if, if that's not your, your cup of tea. But, um, having some understanding and being able to at least talk your way through some things is definitely super beneficial and, and that's also not to say that, I mean, some folks, you know, it, it, they might fall in love with it.

30:17They might have been a lawyer and they, and they might want to, to build out their own applications. Um- But there's definitely a, a large amount of, of already, um, founded and, and funded, uh, legal tech companies out there that, that are, you know, always looking for, for applicants and, and, uh, folks that used to be lawyers to, to work on other side of things, you know, sales, marketing, uh, and, and things like that. So, um, no, I, I think this has been a, a, a great conversation, Senne, and, and, you know, we just want to, uh, probably go ahead and wrap up here. And typically the last question that we ask everyone, uh, before hopping off is, is, you know, if you had, um, maybe two or three suggestions for, you know, I, I think we've gotten on this topic of, of maybe, um, somebody in the legal field that's looking to break into legal tech. I mean, what would be your top two or three suggestions or takeaways to, to, to give advice to somebody that might be looking to kinda change their, their career trajectory and, and move into, um, the, the legal tech space? Yeah. Very good question. First of all, if you're coming from a legal background, find a problem that excites you. Um, find, find a problem that frustrates you in a certain way.

31:25You know, find a problem that you've experienced before and that you are interested in solving. And, uh, with how, um, I'm trying to find a better way for, better word for packed, uh, but essentially how packed the, uh, the legal tech, uh, market currently is. Um, there is always going to be a tool that approaches a, a solution for a problem that you've experienced in the past and that you're interested in, in solving. Um, so that's definitely step number o- one. You know, always start, always start from the problem and, and, and, uh, explore different, uh, opportunities at different, uh, legal tech companies from there. Um, and then of course it's also an option of, you know, which role do you want to do. And, and like you said, Marc, you know, there's, there's all sorts of roles for legally trained people in maybe non-legal functions like sales and like, like marketing. Um, I think I, I, myself, I enjoyed a lot of business development, uh, when I was still a lawyer, so I did a lot of, um, art- short articles, uh, blog posts and things like that.

32:28Um, so I, even in ClauseBase, I naturally gravitated towards the, uh, the marketing side of things. Um, and then there's a lot of people who just, you know, love talking to, to people and, and, uh, and love interacting and, and building networks and things like that. And so those people may be more inclined towards a sales role. Um, so yeah, uh, in, in summary, know what sort of problem you're trying to solve, and know how you yourself would, um, best exploit your own skills and, and just, uh, find a role that you would find yourself most comfortable in. Great. Great. Yeah, I think those are, are some great takeaways. And, um, a- and Senne, you know, if, if folks wanna connect with you, maybe talk more about your journey, maybe, you know, get some advice from you or, or learn more about ClauseBase, uh, w- where's the best place to connect with you? Uh, the best place to connect with me is either via LinkedIn, which, uh, is just, you know, you can fill in my name if, uh, if you can, uh, spell it correctly 'cause it's, it's not an easy one.

33:29Um, uh, and of course, uh, people can reach out to me, uh, via email. That's, uh, senne@clausebase.com. Great. Great. Thanks, Senne. It's, it's been a pleasure to, uh, to have you on the show, and thanks for joining us. And, uh, thanks everybody for listening to another episode of Contract Heroes. We hope to see you back here real soon.