Tips For A Successful CLM Implementation

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00Welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, the show where our guests, and sometimes us, provide best practice recommendations on all things related to contract management. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Today, we have a, uh, great show for you. We're gonna be bringing on Magnus Lindberg and, and we're gonna be chatting about, uh, implementing your perfect contract management solution. So, uh, we're gonna be drilling into all different types of things. So what type of information do you need to have on hand before you go out there and look for a solution? What type of info is going to be, uh, s- things that you need to gather once you do find that solution? As well as what does that implementation process look like?

0:59Uh, but before we dive in, I wanted to turn things over to Magnus, let him give you a, a better understanding of his background and, uh, what he's been up to, uh, these past couple of years. So Magnus, take it away. Yeah. Hi, Marc. Hi, Pepe. Nice to be here. And, uh, it's been... Uh, over the last 10 years really I've been drilling into the space of, of how to use tech for, uh, improved, uh, legal work and how to manage contracts in a better way. So, uh, starting with document, uh, generation really, uh, 10 years ago. And then come in the last few years been working with more large scale legal tech contract management systems and implementation of those, um, in, in both mid-size firms, uh, mid-size companies and, and large corporates as well. So it's, uh, it's been a, been a mix of different types of, uh, systems, both end to end and, uh, more point solutions. So it's, uh, ex- excited to be here. Great, Magnus.

2:04So there, there's a lot of things that we could be talking about, uh, on the steps that every company or even law firms or consulting services company might take into consideration before spending money on software. Mm-hmm. And, and, and what we've seen, and probably I'm, I'm pretty sure that you also have seen this, but people think that technology is going to be the solution for all the process, uh, issues that a company has. But the thing is, like, they need to have a lot of information and to gather a lot of information before trying to ask somebody to implement a new kind of software. So, uh, Magnus, our first question will be, what's your experience in this? Like, what would you recommend any corp company, uh, regarding the size, could be a small or a, or a big company, before starting to look for a CLM tool? Uh, yeah. It's, it's, I mean, as you say, there's, uh, tech is...

3:04I, I see tech as it's not the solution to everything. It can support and, and enhance the way you do things, right? So, uh, but it is, it is a bit, um, a tricky landscape and there's so many new tools call themselves, uh, CLM or, uh, legal tech or, uh, whatever. Um, but supporting the process at least in, in many ways. But, uh... And it's, it's, I guess, a lot of, uh, GCs or, um, commercial contract, uh, managers, they get appro- approached by, by different companies. And it... I find that, um, you need to sort of think of, of, um, a few things before, before you do buy the, uh, buy the technology. And it's, it's really a good time to think about, uh, getting out of the silo if, if you are in one, and only working, let's say legal or, uh, procurement or sales, whatever.

4:01But whichever s- silo you're in, uh, really trying to look at, at your process and how it connects to other processes. Um, it, of course, the tech can sometimes help you to, uh, define the process in, in many ways. Um, uh, and- Yeah, of course. Like you, you can even start with an Excel sheet. Just like try to go through the whole process. Just do something at the beginning, right? Yeah. Yes. You don't have to have... You don't, you don't need the Lamborghini software. You can start just by going with the, with the free softwares and try just to- Try something... uh, get that information. Yeah. Yeah. And then, then... So, and before, like, buying anything, really, yeah, define that, just the, the simplest way of, uh, of one process maybe. And, and I think that's also very good, uh, way of approaching implementation in, in general. That, well, you can't buy a system for, for your whole company, and you can't buy, buy it for all the processes. And none, no company knows all of the processes anyway, so it's impossible.

5:06So, um, yeah, ke- keep it very simple. Um, just write down your process to start with. Look at your, uh, look at your contracts because that's what we're managing, right? And try to, if not simplifying them and, you know, the, the, the simplest contract ever, uh, at least look at how many NDAs do you use, how many sales contracts. Are there similarities? Are there some kind of, um, k- some kind of simplification and, and the bundling of things you can do. Um, I think that's... I mean, most companies would, um, maybe this is controversial on this kind of a show, but maybe it's better for the companies to not buy software at all. Uh, but, but to g- get the things together first. Uh, I think do... I do think that they should buy some, some kind of software later on. Uh, but, but start with that sim- simplification of, of templates and- And not maybe simplification of the process yet, but at least write it down in the simplest way possible, so yeah. Right.

6:08Right, and I, and I think, you know, Magnus, I mean, we've, we've talked about that before with, with one of our other previous guests. You know, Dennis, uh, Potemkin came on and, and, you know, the conversation revolved around maybe software's not the right, um, fix-all for, for all these organizations out there. You know, some of them need to get their, their processes in place. Maybe simplifying the language inside of those contracts is really what they need to do before they go out there and, and purchase an application to, to try to manage this stuff. Um, but I think, you know, what we've found is, is before an organization needs to reach out and, and get in touch with all these different providers, I think they need to understand, you know, how many different types of contracts they have. They need to understand their workflow processes, and they need to understand how they're going to take their legacy data if, if they do wanna bring that on board to a new solution, how they're going to take that from, you know, their shared drives or, or even their filing cabinets, uh, and, and import that into, um, a, a contract management tool. Yeah. Yeah, and it's, uh, it's definitely a good time for, for if not before start talking to different functions in, in the, in the organization.

7:15I mean, IT should obviously be on board, uh, when you're talking about data there. Um, the analytics teams. Um, and, and it's a really good time to, um, a good, um, uh, pros- internal process of the process of buying this kind of software is a good process of bringing things, uh, to the next step as well. So, um, I think legal can't do it all themselves, and so can't ... None, none of the functions can't really, so yeah. Yeah. And that, and that brings up a good point. So, you know, I, I think in our experience, you know, legal is, is pretty s- I mean, they have been in the past stuck in their ways and, and they're, they're usually some of the, the last, uh, departments to, to go out there and look for tools to, to help automate some of these, um, workflows and, and practices that they've been using for so long. I, I mean, have you found, you know, when you, when you say bringing IT into the, the equation earlier, you know, to, to do some of that heavy lifting as far as give...

8:12Kind of guiding legal to, to better understand what the process of purchasing software looks like? Uh, because a lot of the organizations that we work with, they, their legal team hasn't purchased software before. You know, they're, they're part of that buying process for other departments when they're red lining or reviewing a contract. But when, when purchasing something, you know, themselves, uh, we've found that, that some of the teams tend to get stuck and, and they're not really sure what that next step is. So I mean, who, who else on the team do you recommend bringing in so that they can kind of show you what this, this buyer's journey is supposed to look like? Obviously, that does fall on the seller as well. Um, but, but who else inside the or- organization internally do you think is a, a good, uh, persona to bring in to kind of help walk through this process? Uh, a- apart from IT where, where you sort of have the good help of the, like, used to do the testing, for example. Uh, y- you used to have the governance, the data governance, which is of course even more in, in some, some industries. In some large corporates they have even more of. Uh, but otherwise really, really doing, um, uh, workshops or discussions with, with the end user who is actually, um, owning the contract. Right.

9:20And that's actually a good starting point because if you ask a company who owns the contract, it's not always clear, right? Uh, they're not... It's like, well, legal takes, takes care of the contracts. Or, or do they? Uh, is it sales contract? Yeah, and that kind of thing. That could actually be a good starting point, and bringing that, uh, the answer to that question in, into the, um, to the discussion to see are we really, uh, are we expecting the right things from each other? So. Right. And there's an- a- another thing because a lot of companies have to keep in mind that these softwares, they're not just like a plug and play softwares. They have to be configured, right? Because every company has different processes. They have different workflows, different contracts, whatever, right? And, uh, and as you said, you, you gotta bring a lot of, uh, of the people that are actually inside the process, not just the contract manag- contract managers or the legal teams, but also the ones who are requesting the contracts, the ones who are, uh, negotiating with outside parties.

10:27But let's say, uh, let's, let's think about, uh, a, a company, right? They already know, they already passed one year with the COVID and they want to digitize all their process, right? And they're starting to look for different vendors. And of course, these vendors, they want to show them the features of their software, right? And this, and this usually, uh, takes place with a demo, right? So what would you recommend to look for in a demo of all these vendors to know if, if they match the requirements? Um, well, I'm, I'm not sure the demos are doing that much, actually. Uh, it looks... It's, I mean, it's a good introduction. Of course, if, if you meet with a software company for the first time, it's good to see a demo so that you can see- Right... it's there. Uh, otherwise I don't see the demo itself, a short demo, like a half an hour as, as much, uh, giving much to the process. But I think, uh, if you can take it, um...

11:30Well, you need a demo to then, um, do a proper, uh, RFP process. Maybe looking at maybe we should compare a few different softwares. Uh, and you need to know it's at least close to what you, what you think you need. Um, but I think taking the next step is even more important. Uh, to have a, a very short POC, give them a short contract to, to automate if that's what you're looking for. Um, maybe looking at the work- workflow, how easy is it? You mentioned configuration there as well. Right. And, and that's also, uh, something that's missing usually that- The companies are not, uh, thinking about, uh, who's gonna maintain it. They may think, oh, that IT can do the, do some of the IT stuff and then, um, and then legal is responsible or, or contract management is responsible for it. But, but, but really thinking about and having the software companies showing not just the features, um, but also what it is. What, what is the, the engine behind it and how it works.

12:36I mean, not the code and stuff like that. You don't need that. Exactly. But, but, but the actual how is it to work with it, um, with the tool for a configurator, uh, if it's internal or if you use an implementation partner to start with. Um, but at least seeing what it takes to maintain. I think that's, that's the most beneficial thing for, for demos. Maybe I'm a bit skewed there because I, that's what I work with a lot, and I want to know h- how, how it looks and how it is to work with. But, um, I think, um, features, um, maybe even keeping it, uh, a bit low, low key, so it's more about, um, what they can achieve. Um, not talk so much technical, but what they can actually do. And then, yeah, what it takes to implement really. I think that's, uh, that's what I want to know for clients I help to pick systems. Right. Right. I, yeah, and I think that's, that's totally key, right?

13:35Because most of the clients would say like, "Okay, you have pretty cool features, but how those features adapt to my requirements," right? They, they, they don't wanna know, okay, you have this feature and it l- it looks pretty and whatever, but what they really wanna know is like how it adapts to their process. So Magnus, so b- before going a little bit deeper, I, I would like you to ask if you can give us just like a s- a very brief walkthrough on how you help, uh, uh, your customers in order to have an, a successful implementation. Let's think about, uh, like a, like a real case, like a company that they, they know or they want to have a CLM implemented, but they don't know h- where to start, which is most of the cases. Yeah. Yeah. I, I... That's, um, that's most of the cases. That's true. And it's, uh, and it's, it's legal tech is really hyped at the moment, so a lot of people knows that they want legal tech, for example.

14:38And, uh, or they want to do something. They're with maybe with e-discovery or something like AI or, or, or anything. But it's, I think what I... Well, I think what I usually do really is to, to start, um, maybe just taking a part, part of the company, taking a part of the process. Um, of course, NDA comes to mind. That's usually one, one starter. It's everybody knows it takes too long. Everybody knows it's... Well, it's never really, uh, nobody does anything with the NDAs aft- after it's signed. Right. It takes too long, right? That's, that's one thing, or you can look at a bit more complex, um, complex process. And then I try to just define that simple steps, uh, with a list of, um, the approvals that are needed. If, if that's one thing. Who are involved? Uh, who approves it? And, uh, how is it signed at the moment, right? Most of the times, and especially now under COVID, of course, people have really understood they need e-signature. Right. Um, yeah.

15:42And then, and then, uh, looking at that process, I was asking for the, for the contracts and, and we're looking at the contracts, the templates for them. It's, um, um, I'm trying to link it to, to other parts of the company. So it's, it's a bit of a balance there between keeping it very narrow, but also, uh, have, have the client think about, think about sort of how is this connected in the whole, um, in the whole organization. So, so, uh, that's a bit case by case how mu- how much you should, should link in other, other parties. But, um, then, um, when knowing, when knowing the templates and knowing the process, um, we're looking at, looking at what kind of resources they do have. I mean, sometimes they have, um, some... It could be that it's, uh, not structured, but they do have some, uh, younger maybe more tech savvy personal doing contracts already. Right.

16:43And they, they are keen to do something and, and the senior, more senior understands that if the, um, if the younger can work with technology they can do it. Uh, they can be happy. So, uh, that, that could be one case. Otherwise, it's, it's talking to them about how would you actually maintain this and how would you, how... Who, who needs to do what. Uh, if they can do something to start with, and, and if they are ready to implement, um, then, then I would, then I would, uh, try to def- define a bit more of the, of the requirements, not as maybe as a like IT requirements for a whole system, but at least what, what they're aiming to do, um, first phase and then second phase. Because as you know, could be that they, they need to, uh, generate templates and documents, and then they can go into workflow or if they need to do the whole end-to-end process to start with. So, um, I guess that's where I start. And then for just things coming into that, uh, depending on how mature they are and how, how much time they dedicate to it as well. Yeah. Because, uh, you know, sometimes it's, that could be a, a big hurdle actually. They want to do something, they know they need tech, and then they start with a project, but they don't dedicate resources.

18:03So I try to have- Dedicated resources in the project- Yeah... in the project, because I think that's very, very important. Yeah, and it, and it's a good start for companies that they don't have clear KPIs. Like, this is a way on how to start because they're, that's a way on how to quantify the resources that you need in order to complete the whole contract life cycle, uh, right? But it's, it's a balance there as well, I think, because it's sometimes it's actually, uh, the new system will solve some of that s- because they don't know, they don't know what their legal department is doing, uh, all the time. I mean, they don't, they don't really know how long things take. And it's, that i- that is a bi- bit of a tricky one because it's, at the same time, the, the system will solve some of that and, and keeping track of the ROIs. Uh, but, but sometimes it's, they need it bef- before, before taking the decision because most of them at least need, wants to see that, sort of what can we save in money or time, but money. Right.

19:08Well, and I, I think you brought up a, you know, a good point there around taking that phased approach. Uh, I think when organizations are looking at this kind of tool, they really don't understand what the time investment it's going to be. You know, they think that their IT department needs to really be involved. And, and although they, they do initially, uh, you know, as more, more teams move more to SaaS applications and, and nothing's really on-prem anymore, you know, a lot of the heavy lifting does fall more so on that implementation team and, and the legal team or the procurement team to get that implementation t- team the, the actual info that they need to, to be able to implement the solution, which is why, you know, I, I think, Magnus, when you said, you know, take a phased approach, make sure that you're just tackling one thing at a time. Uh, I think we all need to get better at time blocking, and I think that that's something that, uh, folks that are implementing these types of tools need to understand is, is you really need to make sure that you check each box as you're going through this process to, to make sure that everything is successful and you're driving towards a goal. Um, because I, I think you can get lost on these implementations and, and things really get slowed down or bogged down when, um, you know, you don't have those milestones in place to make sure that each part of the implementation is going to be successful.

20:19Yeah. Yeah, no, I think, um, it's, uh, uh, maybe the, that's one of the key things for, for software companies and if they... I mean, they could of course reach out to a great implementation partner if, if, if some company comes to mind there, uh, on this podcast. But, uh, but, you know, it's, uh... No, but I think actually e- if, even if they don't work with partners, but if they work for themselves and they, they, the software company gets to do a demo for a com- for a large corporate, for example, um, I think it's, it's very important to, to take that not just doing a demo, but, but also that showing that, uh, it's, this will take, this will take a couple months, but, but this is how we'll do it. Uh, and this is what you get, uh, at the end. We will, we will help you with to start with a little piece of, of your big operation, but, uh, but at least this is, this is the process how we do it. And, uh, uh, and to...

21:19I think there's this, that's a big, big thing for software companies to actually not just sell, sell it initially to, uh, to, let's say, a GC who's get, gets inspired by, by that, the demo, but, but also having it, the uptake within the organization. Because there's one thing of having somebody signing up to a license for, for, for, for one user or a couple of users, uh, but it's another thing to have it, like, let's say, corporate-wide implementation. That's, that's a totally different operation. Yeah. User adoption is, is so key, especially when you're, you're talking about this stuff. Because you could, you could purchase the, the best piece of software that's on the market and it could have all the bells and whistles, but if you can't get everybody's buy-in and they're stuck using those manual processes that they were using before they purchased the software, you know, it, it's never gonna go anywhere. Nobody's gonna wanna use it. And, and it's, you know, after that first year or those first three years that you purchased, um, you know, nobody's gonna renew after that.

22:15So I, I think it's definitely important for either the, the publisher or, you know, in our case as, as implementers, to, to make sure that we keep user adoption high, we keep other teams excited to learn more about those applications, uh, so that when it does come time to expand and, and give them other processes that they can bring into this, uh, that everybody's on the team is still excited about it and, and wants to continue to push forward with the automation, uh, processes. Yeah. Bringing those, um, those first initial champions in the organization to actually, um, help, help the next phase of the rollout, uh, it's very important. Um, that's... I guess that's maybe who you keep in, in the organization you work with, maybe that's the people you keep happy, uh, to start with, uh, so they understand the, the benefits. Well, they probably understand the benefits to start with, but then actually have the, uh, let's say, tools or, uh, are capable to help with the rollout, so yeah. Yeah, of course.

23:17And that would be like a very well managed proof of concept because you don't need to have all your requirements just to know if the, if the platform is able to do that. Like, you can run, uh, basic, um, configuration just to know that you can scale that up for different areas inside the company. And that's, and that's exactly, well, what we started talking about, right? Because the contracts needs to be in contact with all the other departments of the company. And if you can bring other departments of the company, new stakeholders that need to keep an eye on the contract, because there's no other place where you can have all the details of every commercial relationship of the company than in the contracts. And i- if you know how to take that data, put it on the system, and how a way... Because I mean, we've been talking a lot about the implementation, right? Of the process.

24:12How you request a contract and once you sign them. But what happens afterwards? There's a lot of information, and there, there's a lot of data that you gotta keep an eye on once the contract is signed, right? And if you already have legacy documents that you wish to monitor with one of this platform, this is of the essence. You gotta know these key terms. You gotta know, uh, which kind of notifications or alerts would you wish to have, because that will help you just to have a successful commercial relationship with third parties. Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, the data piece there that's, that's, um, i- it- well, in a way, it's very easy to, to start, uh, automation of, of contracts. Uh, the, the, the first piece there, uh, with temp generation, that's, that's sort of, I w- I would say, the easy part, and there's a lot of great tools for that. But, um, as you say there, the, the post signature is, is, uh, often overlooked. Because you do, you do the POC, and you say, "Well, you can save this, this amount of time," because that's very tangible. Well, to a degree at least, it's tangible. You know it's, the contract takes too long, and, and you can save time. Right. Uh, not that you have the numbers in, in hours and minutes, but it's still...

25:28Um, but the post, the post signature is, is o- often overlooked, and it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's a tough one usually. Um, um, and this, of course, there's coming more big data things. Well, big data maybe was a few years ago, but, but that kind of, uh, approach at least. And, um, uh, uh, seldom there's, there's contracts involved in that, but, uh- Right... s- sometimes. Sometimes, and, uh, uh, hopefully more moving forward, so. Yeah, and I think, you know, sometimes when we see organizations that are more concerned about the, the, the post agreement, you know, tracking the, the dates and renewals and stuff, is when they've had something slip through the cracks and it's really affected their bottom line. Uh, you know, they, maybe they, they missed a renewal and, um, either the customer got upset and left them or, uh, they missed an auto renewal that they didn't want- they wanted to update the terms and conditions on. And, and, you know, I mean, when that starts to, to really affect, um, the bottom line of an organization, I think that's when folks really start to pay more and more attention to what's happening after, uh, a document is signed, and, and how do we track these, these, uh, action items a little bit more, um, in depth to, to make sure that, you know, this doesn't happen again.

26:39And, and I think that's kind of what we're seeing. I don't know about you, Magnus. Uh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's always, of course, uh, big risks. Uh, and, um, or, well, the, the lawyers, of course, always think about big risks. Uh, but also seeing it on the financial side. And, and actually, the, the... That could also be good as, as we talked about earlier, on who to bring in to the project, and it's, uh, bring in the fi- finance people, um, to see what sort of, what are they experiencing. Even if they're not involved in the contracts, uh, they see the numbers, um, that comes out of the contract relationship. So could be good to have a, uh, a nice discussion with them, and, uh, usually they understand, uh, the concept of, of keeping track of money and keeping track of data for that sake. And, and usually they are a bit more, finance is usually a bit more s- systemized, it's a bit more automated, and, than, uh, than the legal side. So, um, um, bringing it back to the sort of one of the first points we talked about, so. Right, because they can identify any cost leaks with, uh, contract management, and they can tell you, "Okay, so we've been paying this amount of fines during the past year." Right? Or, "We're paying..."

28:00You know, it's, it's, it's also useful to bring this, uh, this department into the implementation to avoid any kind of pitfall on to have a not a successful implementation. And what, what other thing, uh, Magnus, is like, what would you recommend to companies not to do when they're looking for an implementation in order to avoid? Because we gotta know, like, not all implementations are successful. But what would be, like, the common, uh, causes that you've seen of not successful implementations? Uh, I think, I think big problem is that, that they go with, they've seen a demo and it looks good, and they go with that system, and they don't really look at different things. Um, so that's the first thing, it's, um, if, if there's a publisher that can, of course, bring, uh, the comparison about different tools, that's a good, that good start. But otherwise, it's, uh, even, would be even better to go even wider. Uh, so having different, uh, resellers or, or software companies to, to come in and, and do the same POC in a way.

29:12Um, so that's too, too narrow approach for, for one tool that you've saw on a, on a, on a call or, or, or on a, in a f- on a conference or something like that. Uh, happens, happens often, really. And then, uh, also the other thing is, uh, that they shouldn't do, is that to have, just buy something and then don't allocate anyone to actually work with it. And they say, "Yeah, yeah, we'll implement it, and we'll start using it." And then nobody is sort of approved to, to take time from the working week to actually do it or actually try to learn. So, um, uh, so that's, uh, that's the two things I should focus on. Uh, compare more and, and, uh, have dedicated personnel, not working full-time maybe, but, but at least having some, some, uh, focus on the, on the systems trying to- Right... trying to do and trying to implement, so. Right.

30:15Right, and I think that, you know, I mean, that, that, you kind of answered my next question, which is typically what we ask folks at the end of, you know, each of these conversations, Magnus, is if you can give a, you know, just a couple of tips to, to an organization that's out there to start looking, uh, that is starting to look at a contract management tool. You know, I mean, besides making sure that you're allocating the proper resources What other maybe one or two tips could you give to, to an organization that's just started their search? Um, well first of all, uh, look, look at, at the processes internally. Uh, but see that do they, do they really need only document generation? Is that the only thing they need? Or is it end to end, like so is it the point solution really? Uh, or is it end to end, uh, an end to end system that they, they really need? Or do they... Well, well let's bring this back a bit. For the f- first of all, uh, I think for large corporates, um, ask the IT department what applications they already have.

31:15Uh, and, uh, and then my, I mean, my, my best tip is, is always, uh, it's not good maybe for IT consultants or, or, uh, legal process consultants, but, uh, teach your, uh, legal people five shortcut keys in, uh, Microsoft Word and Outlook and that will save you a lot of time. So that's, that's my first actually best tip. That's, that's gonna save you a lot. Uh , but, but for buying other softwares, I think look what you have, uh, think about what you can actually use. If you do use Microsoft Suite or Google Suite, what can you do with those? And what, how can you incorporate those in the, in the process? And how can they link? If you, let's say you work with Microsoft, then do you work in Teams? Um, should you look for, maybe you should look for a tool that can actually manage that, uh, and integrate with Microsoft Teams or Outlook or the one thing you use. So yeah. Perfect. All right.

32:21So Magnus, thanks a lot for your recommendation. It was pretty useful. I'm pretty sure that there's one, more than one company that it's listening to this in detail because there's a lot of... You, you can even look for reports from Thomson Reuters or any other, uh, business analyst on what kind of softwares they're, they're, they're looking for. And most of them, they always put contract management as their top priority for all the companies, and there they start looking for maybe any other, any other software. So I think this information and this re- recommendation will be very useful for all this company that want to take next step on how to automate and digitize all their operations. So Magnus, thanks a lot for all your time and all your recommendations. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Magnus. Of course. And, and hey, where, where can folks go if they wanna connect with you, learn a bit, a little bit more about, uh, you know, what you do? Yeah. Uh, uh, LinkedIn. Uh, search for Magnus.

33:19Uh, there's, there, there are a few around, but sk контраcts.com, so it's a good place to start. And, um, yeah, um, I'm happy to... This is what I like to discuss, h- how to approach, uh, better implementation. So this, um, this was great, guys. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks Magnus. All right, everybody, that's gonna do it for us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and, uh, we look forward to hopefully having Magnus on in the future to, to continue the conversation.