Tips on becoming a legal thought leader

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00Welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, the show where our guests, and sometimes us, provide best practice recommendations on all things related to contract management. Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Contract Heroes, where we're not the heroes, our guests are. Uh, today we've got a great one for you. We've got Jay Harrington on the podcast, and, uh, today's topic is going to revolve around building your personal brand. Uh, you know, nowadays this is something that, uh, a lot of organizations are, are pushing their employees to do. Uh, employees are going out there and doing this on their own. Uh, I know folks are, are building consulting practices on the side, uh, just by building their, their personal brands.

0:53You know, we're gonna be focusing on LinkedIn, but I'm sure there's other social media aspects out there that other folks are using. Um, and, and today we're gonna be focusing on, uh, why and how legal professionals should be building these brands. Uh, so before we jump into it, I just wanted to turn things over to Jay, allow him to introduce himself, and, uh, talk a little bit about his background. So Jay, thanks for being on. Uh, would love to hear a little bit more about, uh, about you. Thanks, Marc. Great to be here. Thank you for having me on. So I am, I'm a lawyer. I no longer practice, but I practiced for about 10 years. I started my career at Skadden Arps in their Chicago office, and then from there went to Foley & Lardner. I then left there and started my own small law firm, uh, doing corporate restructuring work in the Detroit, Michigan area. So that was my experience practicing law and, and shortly thereafter, after I transitioned out of my, the firm I had founded, I started a marketing and consulting agency, and we serve the legal industry.

1:53We help lawyers and law firms, uh, really become thought leaders and, and use thought leadership as a tool to develop business and build their brands. Um, so that involves, uh, things like coaching, training, and actual consulting, where we're helping them to create content, create thought leadership platforms, and build their personal brands. So that's a little bit about me. That's great, Jay. So before we go and jump in the details on how, uh, lawyers can use tools such as LinkedIn, can you give us just, like, a brief on how the legal landscape has changed in the past years from a social standpoint? Like, how or why building a personal brand has become more important than ever? Yeah. No, that's a great question. Good place to start. So I think, you know, if you dial the clock back or the calendar back, uh, you know, a number of years, things like social media seem like frivolous distractions in- Right...

2:51the legal industry, I think, where it was, you know, no one quite got it. Everyone associated social media with kind of the, the sort of Facebook personal connections, um, you know, memes, pictures of your puppies, that kind of thing, and they never really- Not very p- professional. Yeah, exactly. Didn't really understand how that played into building a legal practice. Um, and obviously that's changed quite a bit, and I think, you know, what lawyers are coming to understand is that if they're not visible online in places like social media platforms and elsewhere, then they're virtually invisible. Um, and what I always, the way I usually contextualize it for them is thinking about, you know, if you're, if you're hoping to be visible to your prospective clients or to employers or to other gatekeepers to opportunities out there, you know, the first place everyone's going is, is online, of course, you know? Right.

3:40It's either going to LinkedIn to check out your profile or going to Google and searching your name and, and seeing what, what they found, and if you don't have a body of work that's speaking for you in those places, well, then, again, you're not gonna be particularly visible, nor, um, considered very authoritative, um, to the people that you're trying to influence or persuade or develop business from. So it's, it's changed quite a bit and, of course, you know, it's only changed and accelerated since COVID. Um, you know, we, we saw even pre-pandemic, there's a, a study that was done by Gartner, um, which came out, I think, in November 2019, and it found that for, uh, sophisticated buyers of B2B services, they would typically make it approximately 60% of the way through the buying process before ever making contact with an individual service provider. So, um, what we see there is that what they're doing is they're going online, doing their due diligence, winnowing down their options, and seeing what they can find, looking for expertise online, and from there they're making buying decisions.

4:45And I think that, like most sort of trends that were already in place before the pandemic, that's only accelerated because, of course, now we don't have any other place to interact with our audiences or our network other than online, for the most part, and I don't see that necessarily changing. I know a lot of the lawyers, especially in private practice, are sort of waiting for things to return to, quote, "normal," but- They won't. Yeah, they won't. And I, and I, you know, I remind them of the fact that, you know, the ability to take someone to a lunch or to a ball game or to go to a networking event takes two to tango, right? I mean, it's not just your preference to get back to, quote, "normal," but it's also your, your clients' or your colleagues', uh, preference as well. There's two sides to that transaction, and so I d- I just don't think culturally and from an individual preference standpoint, people are looking for the same level of interaction outside of the office, and I think that means that we need to be thinking more about the social media landscape, the digital landscape, in order to be able to interact with those we're trying to reach. Right. And I would like to add that maybe there's a very common, I would say, mistakes that, uh, lawyers think like, "Nah, my client would never go on social media or, or LinkedIn. They usually text me or they call me."

5:57The thing is that the age gap has reduced, and right now, like, the new general counsels are w- way younger. Like, the people- Mm-hmm... the past generation, now they're getting retired and, and, and, and there's new players h- in the, the market. And we always go through LinkedIn just to check what's, uh, published about some of our, uh, service p- providers, where have they, uh, spoke in case that... Well, with the, with the new normal, now no conferences, but let's say webinars, if they've been published by any kind of magazine. And there's no better place to have all this information in one single place like your LinkedIn profile. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and Pepe, I think, you know, to add to that, too, from the other, uh, another perspective is also, you know, from a resume standpoint, it's- Exactly... you know, and Jade, are, are you seeing more folks maybe getting hired or, or getting business based on what they're producing, uh, on social media instead of, you know, sending in a paper resume to an organization?

7:01You know, maybe somebody's on outside counsel and they're looking to go in-house. Um, do you think that in the future, you know, and, and I know that we've talked about this, I've talked about this in the past with, with some other folks in the sales industry, is, is, you know, it, it's no longer going to be a, a paper resume. It's going to be more so, you know, the type of, of information you're sharing on LinkedIn and, a- and what's on your profile. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think you can see by, you know, the... If I'm thinking about my own behaviors as it relates to, um, you know, looking at candidates for jobs, that kind of thing, I mean, the resume is what it is, right? Right. It's sort of a check the box measure where you ask for that, but you're really digging in on people's, uh, body of work online and seeing, what are they actually doing? Are they, are they active participants in the conversation in the industry? Are they intellectually curious? Are they articulate and do they have an ability to write? Um, are they connected? Are they engaged? All of these things are, are impossible to determine just from a resume, but you can very much, uh, identify not just how someone is presenting themselves to you as a candidate, but how do they, how do they act outside of that, you know, within their, within the context of their job and their previous experience.

8:08Are they creating? Are they thinking? Are they engaging? All of those things matter, and those are all, um, things you can determine by looking at, you know, their past experience on places like LinkedIn or other, um, digital channels. Right. People wanna, wanna know which kind of content you, you've been creating, and that's the importance of content, right? Because your resume, let's say your LinkedIn profile, if you have your experience and your name and your p- position, if you wanna make an analogy, it's like having a brochure, and nobody reads a brochure more than once. Mm-hmm. You wanna give information. What are your experiences, right? What, uh... How can you solve the pain points or, or problems in the industry of your, uh, of your clients? And there's no better way to show that than posting content, right? Yeah, right. It's, it's a window into someone's mind. Are they, are they, uh, thinking about the issues that are gonna be impactful in your industry, you know, in, in future years? Are they, um, engaging with other people in those conversations?

9:09There's n- no other way to determine those types of things other than seeing whether or not they're, they're creating content and putting the thought leadership out front and center. Yeah, yeah. And I, I also think, you know, it's a great way, it's a great indicator, uh, for organizations that are looking to hire somebody. You know, how are they gonna act, uh, interact with folks inside the organization i- you know, depending on how they're interacting with folks outside of the organization. I think that's, that's, uh, a great way to, to kinda tell what kinda person somebody is. And that kinda leads us into our next question, which is, you know, uh, why, why do you think organization, as an organization, why do you think it's important, uh, to make sure that your, um, employees are going out there on, on social and, uh, building that personal brand? Well, I think it's the same reason if we were to think about, you know, how people, um, represented their, their organization in, in the old way- Right... of doing things, right, where somebody would be sent to a conference in order to be sort of the, the face of the organization at that event.

10:07You wanna make sure that that person, um, has some authority, is perceived as trustworthy, has a good network, has a good handle on what the company's mission is, and is articulate and is, has an ability to be persuasive to audiences. Well, that same principle applies online. Every organization has a, a need to, uh, uh, you know, have customers, create partnerships, recruit employees, and the public-facing personal brand of those people within your organization can help accomplish those objectives. So I think if you think about it, I mean, I, I think there's oftentimes a focus from an organizational standpoint on having a company brand and building out, you know, a company page on LinkedIn and having a presence online. Um, but if you think about the collective network of all of the people in your organization, it dwarfs the, the network of the, the organization's brand itself.

11:05So your employees have a real chance to amplify the message of the organization to the extent that they, uh, have a, a common mission, and they themselves, the employees themselves, are building their personal brand such that they're, they have a bigger platform by which to spread the organization's message and create meaningful change as a result of that. So I think from an organizational standpoint, it's critical to have your- Your team really be thinking about their personal brands in concert with the organizational brand being built as well. We often talk about this in terms of having an employee advocacy approach within your organization where you're getting everyone to create and share content and again, amplify the message that the organization is trying to get out to its audiences. Yeah. Yeah, and I think so. And I think when you look at the engagement that is happening on LinkedIn, you know, it used to be around companies, right?

11:58They, they were the ones that were getting engagement, but now it's, it's all on a personal level. Right. Uh, you know, even if, uh, uh, if we post something for the podcast on the, the podcast page, it might get two or three likes. But if Pepe Ara does that individually, you know, it might get 30 or 40 likes. Mm-hmm. And, and I think that that definitely helps to, um, expand awareness. You know, if it's a compound effect. If you have five or six, uh, folks inside your legal team that are constantly sharing their own perspective and their knowledge on something, it's gonna be much more effective and, and show what your culture really is, more so than just the company sharing something. Right. People wanna hear stories from individuals- Right... not necessarily brands. And, and to your point, especially on social media in particular, I mean, the way that the, if you think about the way that social media platforms are monetizing their platforms, it's by suppressing content from brands and amplifying content from individuals. And so with that in mind, I mean, unless you're willing to, to pay for more attention, it's better to get your, your workforce, um, marching to the beat of the same drum, um, spreading those messes- messages themselves through their networks, because it's gonna be a lot more effective if you do that.

13:06Right. The only thing that, that I don't like about it is that all the good analytics are just for the enterprise profiles. I mean, but before going to these kinds of, of KPIs, there's a- another thing that I, I would like to talk with you, Jay, and it's, this is the tricky part. Okay, we know that we have to build a personal brand. We have to create content. But then when we are facing our computer with a blank M- Microsoft Word page and facing writer's block, how can we avoid it? How can we, uh, break that writer's block? What should we be talking about? Yeah. Well, I think it really relates to a couple things. Like, A, what is your objective? You know, so someone who's building their personal brand, um, they might have a different objective at any given point in time. So for someone who's thinking about, you know, "I'm looking for a new job.

14:00I wanna position myself that way"- Right... well then they probably are gonna be creating content related to, you know, some unique area of expertise that they have that they wanna showcase for purposes of, of, um, other employers. I mean, if you're a lawyer who's in private practice looking to develop business from your, from your personal brand, well then, you know, you'll be thinking about, "All right, what matters to my ideal client audience? I'm gonna be creating content around those types of issues." I mean, at the end of the day, what you would really wanna be thinking about doing is having some narrow focus to what you're doing in your content that, that really maps to your individual business goals or personal goals at any given point in time. And, and the narrower your focus oftentimes, the easier it is to create content around those issues. It's hard to sit in front of the computer, to your point, and, and just think, you know, sort of a blank slate, and think, "What do I wanna create content around?" Whereas if, if you have a specific focus as to what your goals are and what your interests are and what your, where your expertise lies, well then you're narrowing the frame in which you're thinking about the content you wanna create.

15:04And by having that more narrow focus, you're also getting your subconscious, subconscious mind thinking about those issues, and you start to s- then s- see ideas for content through the con- through other content that you're consuming, through conversations you're having, through the work you're doing. Again, you're narrowing that lens such that you are generating more and better ideas for content. And I will say this, for people who have not been, for example, creating content on social media like the LinkedIn platform before, the, the number one place I would suggest they start is not by necessarily creating their own posts immediately, but by creating content by commenting on other people's posts, right? Let someone go first. I like to think of social media as a, it's not a, it's not a totally synchronous conversation, but it's, it's, it's still asynchronous, meaning someone else is posting something and you're reacting to it. It's not in real time. But it's as, it's as asynchronous or as synchronous as you can get in a digital platform.

16:04So, um, when someone says something or posts something on social media that is interesting to you, jump in and, and create comments to that. Ask questions. Engage. That will help you get over that fear factor that many people have, or that writer's block that many people have, when you're actually reacting to something as opposed to being the, the content creator yourself from the start. And by easing into it in that way, I think that's a good entry point for people to eventually get to the point where they're comfortable starting to create their own content as a result. So that's, those are some ideas. Really just narrow down your focus in terms of what are you really interested in, what are issues are you passionate about, where do you have expertise? And then maybe ease into the process by not necessarily creating content of your own, but I guess you are still creating content, but doing so in response to other people's posts on, on those platforms. Yeah. Yeah, and, and I definitely agree with that.

16:57And, and I think that's another way that you build your network out, too, is when you're commenting on those posts, you know, other folks that are interested in the same things are you are, are going to react to your comments. They're going to respond to it. And, and from there you're going to find that niche of, um- Uh, people that are on LinkedIn who are talking about the same things that you're talking about. And I think a great next step there too is, is not to try to jump off the deep end and immediately start to create your own posts, but maybe give a perspective on an article that another lawyer has written, right? Mm-hmm. Give your two cents on, on what you think about that article, and I think that's an easy way to go, um, let's say starting to, to comment, then going off of articles, giving your own perspective, and then maybe, you know, dipping your toes, uh, into the, the deep end there and, and starting to, uh, take off your water wings and, and, uh- Yeah... and write your own content. I, I think that that's kind of... That's how I did it. Mm-hmm.

17:47And, um, you know, over this past year I've, I've really found, um, a great network of, of in-house l- you know, lawyers who, who I, I, I love to, to communicate with because not only do I, I learn more about the day in and, and day outs of what their jobs entail, but, um, but also get an understanding of what type of content is, is important to the folks that I'm, uh, really trying to, to captivate and get to follow me on LinkedIn. Um, because it's, it's great to be, you know, writing sales posts and stuff like that, and it gets a bunch of engagement, but at the end of the day, I mean, that's not the folks that we're r- really trying to, to work with. So, um, it, it's kinda pointless if you're, you're out there, um, talking sales and, and you're not, you know, you don't have the, the luxury of, of selling, uh, into, into sales teams. Yeah. And let me just add onto that, Marc, 'cause I think that's a great point, and especially the point you made about, um, you know, getting started and commenting on other people's posts and as a, as a gateway to creating your own content.

18:43It's also, it's also what you wanna do, you know, to the extent, let's say you're, you're someone who's looking for a new job and you identify someone who could be a, a influential, uh, person in a, in a new hiring decision and you'd like to add that person to your network and become connected with them, or you're a private practice lawyer who, you know, identifies someone as a prospective client or referral source. Y- it's not usually a great idea to just cold connect with people like that. Y- there are people you might just cold connect with, but for those who you really think could be important to your future, um, the best way to make that connection, establish that connection, is to really engage with their content first. People take for granted how much people who do create content pay attention to the people who are engaging with their posts. And if you're, you know, spend a couple weeks commenting two or three times on, on a few of the posts that someone, um, puts up on LinkedIn, well, then they're gonna notice, and oftentimes they'll probably preempt you and connect with you first as a result of that because they're seeing you as someone who's adding value to what th- they're trying to do.

19:49So i- if you're, if you're thinking about building out your network on a place like LinkedIn, definitely think about first engaging with what other people are doing on the platform before connecting with them, 'cause your success, your, your likelihood of success is gonna go way up as a result of that. Yeah. I, I totally agree. And, and, you know, a tip that, that, I mean, that's something that we use or, or I use at least, you know, and, and when we are cold calling or reaching out via email, I'll try to find folks on, on LinkedIn to comment on their post first so that hopefully my name looks a little bit more recognizable to them than me just reaching out completely cold. And, and I think that that does have an impact because you're doing something that no one else is, is out there doing. Um, especially, you know, if you are in the job hunt, you know, comment on, on, um, the HR team's post or, or things like that and, and see if you might be able to maybe talk with the general counsel that's already a member of the team, um, and, and, and try to get in there and, and break the ice in a different way than, uh, just sending in a resume or, or, you know, something else. Right. It's a, it's a, it's, it's a good way on how to build trust, right? Because if you just go directly and try to sell something, like people hate it, right?

20:52We all hate when somebody just, uh, get near to us and offer us a product without even having, uh, build a relationship, right? And, and this is a way on how to get to know each other, right? It's just like, uh, try to find a way on how to understand what are their problems, know what are they talking about, and I think that would be like the best way on how to break the ice, just to understanding. I mean, what I, what I, what I've seen in social media, I mean, in, in every kind of social media, right, not just L- L- LinkedIn, it is that the social rules that, uh, that are applicable to online interaction is just the same like when you're in person with somebody, right? If you just... I mean, it's easier of course because you just have to text and try to wait for a, for a, for an answer. But it's just imagine how it is when you approach to, to, to somebody that you don't know.

21:49Like, try to build that trust, and I think that would be like the first thing to do in order to, uh, build your network, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and don't, uh, don't connect and pitch. You wouldn't- Yeah. Right... you wouldn't do that in person. And, and I, you know, I don't think anybody likes that on, on any social media platform. But especially on LinkedIn, it's, it's huge and, uh, God, it's, it's just the worst when somebody, you know, sends you a generic request and then you get a two paragraph, uh, intro to, uh, to what their business does and how they can help you. So don't do that. Yeah. Yeah, that's the cardinal sin. And, uh, and the other thing that, the other thing that people overlook I, I think sometimes about, uh, interacting on social, uh, media networks is that, you know, there's many... Uh, this would be a situation where I have clients who I've worked with in the past who I've, you know, I've talked to about getting more active on LinkedIn and, and they, their response oftentimes is, "Well, you know, what I, what I really need is I need to book speaking engagements. I need to have reporters, you know, quoting me in stories, an expert source." Um, you know, things like that. You know, traditional marketing activities that they perceive as more valuable.

22:58And what I tell them is that the, the path to those opportunities is on social media, and LinkedIn- Right... in particular. Because the gatekeepers to those opportunities, the reporters, the event organizers, the, um, you know, editors and publishers at magazines, the podcast hosts, they're on LinkedIn looking for expertise and, and thought leaders, and they're- They're inviting them, th- those that they perceive, uh, as thought leaders onto their platforms. You don't have to necessarily pitch for those opportunities, you just need to be visible through your thought leadership and your brand, and that's the gateway to those opportunities. And, and that's oftentimes missed by people that those off LinkedIn opportunities are, are mostly built or identified on LinkedIn. Right. Yeah, I, I think that's great. Uh, I mean, that's, that's how we found you, Jay. You know? Yeah. It wasn't like you reached out to us. You know, I, I came across your posts and, and I thought that this would be an interesting topic to talk about and you were a thought leader.

23:53And, and I think that's, that's a great takeaway for those- Yeah... that are, are, are looking to, you know, find new business, expand their network, find a new job. I, I think that's, that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely, it's, it's, uh, it's overlooked and, and it's, uh... We spend a lot of time, energy, and effort pitching for those opportunities and, and we're doing so cold and, and you really just need to showcase yourself to, to be able to be found for those opportunities. Right. So Jay, what would you recommend to somebody that is just starting? Because I would say that there's a huge market there. Because, I mean, maybe in the last one or two years there's a lot of people having their profiles updated with the most important information, but let's say it's somebody that is just starting. They have their account for several years, but now they want to take it seriously. What would you recommend as, like, the first steps? Yeah. Um, so I would say, uh, f- I guess a few things. One would be really understanding where you wanna build your personal brand. I mean, y- you're one person, you can't be everywhere, right? Right. Unless you're Gary Vaynerchuk or something, right?

24:58You're not, you don't, you don't have the ability to do this full time. So understand where you wanna be visible. So, and that oftentimes relates to, well, it always relates to where does the audience you're trying to reach spend its time and attention, right? So, um, that might be LinkedIn, it might be somewhere else. It depends what your professional goals are and what your, your personal brand goals are. But where is the, the platform or the ecosystem in which you want your brand to be visible? Um, so start there. And then, you know, if, if creating content is part of you building out your personal brand and becoming more visible, well, you know, understand that you don't, there's no one right way to create content. Um, it's oftentimes understanding what you enjoy doing and what you have aptitude for. So what means of communicating will you engage in? Um, are you a strong writer? Is that where you're most comfortable? Well, you can certainly write content to establish and build your personal brand. If you're more comfortable creating videos, do that. Perhaps audio is more your thing, start a podcast. You don't need to do one thing.

25:59Um, but what I would w- recommend is, whatever you do, start small. So, um, like we talked about before, before writing your own posts, maybe engage in comments. Before starting your own podcast, see if you can appear as a guest on somebody else's podcast. Borrow from their audience and get a sense of what you like to do and what you're good at. Um, and, and those are, I think those are probably a few things to be thinking about, which is where is your audience, what do you, what's your best and, and most, um, uh, most effective means of communication, and then start small and, and take baby steps and become more comfortable and skilled at what you do. And then, you know, over time, stay consistent and you'll, you'll become better at it over time. Yeah. I, I, those are some great tips. And, and, you know, I think, I think that those are, are steps that I wish I would've known when I was starting out.

26:51You know, I, I think there are a couple thought leaders out there who, who do a great job of kind, lay- laying out this platform, and I think if I could add one thing to that, it'd be time blocking. So once you are creating your own content, make sure you're setting aside 30 minutes each day, it's on your calendar, where you're doing a little bit of research, you're understanding what people are talking about, and you're writing that post right then and there. Doesn't mean you have to post it then, uh, and there is great, you know, platforms out there that can auto-publish stuff for you once you really start to get going. It's not, I'm not there yet. Um, but, but there's definitely, um, a need to, to time block when, especially, uh, if you, if you are a lawyer or you're on an in-house team and, and, you know, y- you're doing these things. I mean, your day is jam-packed. Um, so, so setting a- aside just a little bit of time each day to, to focus on this I think can made it, make a huge impact. Um, so Jay, I did have one more question for you. Um, what are your thoughts on Clubhouse? Do you think that more folks are gonna be on there? Do you think that it's, it's somewhere where people should be focusing their time? Yeah, interesting.

27:48I, uh, I actually, uh, had this as a note to potentially bring up. And, uh, I'm, I am, I am, uh, on Clubhouse, like many people. Yeah. I haven't actually taken any steps forward. I've been meaning to, but it gets back to the thing where, you know, I am pretty active on LinkedIn and I feel like I've got that pretty dialed in. I, I like the idea of Clubhouse because I do love audio content. I have a podcast of my own and, and so it's very intriguing to me. Um, so I, I guess right now I'm in, I'm in watching mode as opposed to participating mode, or listening mode I should say. Mm-hmm. Um, but I do see some interesting things happening. I, I do think that it's, it could be a great place for someone to build their brand. Um, I haven't totally figured it out myself, so I ha- I hesitate to say too much about whether it, it's gonna be a great platform or not. Um, but it certainly has a lot of buzz and there are certainly people who are, I think, generating, um, you know, significant attention on the platform.

28:42And, and it seems to be, I mean, if you think about it, there hasn't been a new social media platform that's really caught on. I guess TikTok is the most recent one. Um, but for a, a more professional- Right... you know, network, Clubhouse seems to be one of those places where, um, you know, there's a r- there's real opportunities. So, you know, to the extent that someone hasn't really, uh, established themselves and gotten committed to a, a platform, I'd definitely be looking at Clubhouse as an opportunity to, to kind of dip my toes in the water and experiment if I was looking for a place to build my brand. Great. And I would like to ask just two more questions, Jay. Mm-hmm. The first one, what would be, like, the metrics that people should be paying attention to know if they are, uh, engaging with, successfully with their, with their niche market in LinkedIn? Mm-hmm. Well, uh, there's probably a few. I mean, you would, you would wanna be seeing more views and more engagement on your posts, for example, if that's, if you're actually creating content.

29:43It doesn't mean you need, you know, massive engagement, but there should be somewhat of an upward trajectory over time, right? More people are, are commenting, more people are reacting to the content and, and your views are trending upward. Um, one, one of the metrics that LinkedIn doesn't offer explicitly, but I think is, is interesting to keep an eye on is, if you are creating content, um, how much of that content is getting views beyond your follower count? You know- Right... so let's say I've got 1,000 people on my network. Are my posts consistently getting more than 1,000 views or, or less than that? 'Cause the way LinkedIn, um, pushes out content, you know, it's, it sort of, your post goes out to a certain segment of your network. W- what- however the LinkedIn algorithm works, it gauges, you know, whether that post is, is worth sending out to a broader part of your network, and then even beyond it. That's where you r- really wanna get 'cause more people outside your network that are seeing your content, the more likelihood that you're gonna be growing your network, more people are gonna be connecting with you, that kinda thing.

30:44So, so that's, those are a, a few metrics to keep a, your eye on. And I would say this. Um, oftentimes people mistakenly believe that the more people who you have in your network, the more powerful your network or the more powerful your brand, and I don't think that's necessarily the way we should think about things. Um, a small but, you know, intensely and, and, and robustly engaged network, even if it's 1,000 people, is far more valuable than a, a network of 100,000 people who really don't care what you have to say, right? You, you're going for a, a, a composition of your network such that those are your, you know, ideal client audience or prospective employers or whatever, whatever audience you are trying to communicate to. Regardless of how big that network is, if they're engaged with what you're having to say, then that's much more beneficial. So, you know, definitely don't worry about having the biggest network in the world.

31:41Aim for having the most engaged network and having a conversation catalyzed through the comment threads of your post. Yeah, yeah. I think it, it all comes back to, uh, what quantity or quality over quantity, right? Yep, exactly. Um, well, Jay, I, I think this has been a, a fantastic conversation. I think a lot of folks out there, especially in the legal space, are, are trying to, to, to learn more about how to start this journey on, on the social platforms, and I'm hoping that this kinda gives them a place to start. Um, so we, yeah, we really appreciate it. And, and, hey, if people wanna, you know, learn a little bit more about, about you and, and how you're helping lawyers and law firms, uh, on the marketing side of things, where, where can they find out some more information? Uh- That was going to be my second question- ... by the way. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Uh, I appreciate that. Um, so, so my agency is called Harrington Communications, and our, our URL is hcommunications.biz, so you can find everything there. I would definitely encourage people, um, to connect with me on LinkedIn.

32:41I'm, I post daily there, sometimes twice a day. Um, a bit, maybe a bit too much, uh, but that is a place where I'm active. Um, I also have a podcast called The Thought Leadership Project if you'd like to check that out. That's geared towards lawyers. And then I've written a few books. Um, you can find those on my website or on Amazon, but they're all written for lawyers on, on various topics related to either productivity or, um, marketing and personal branding. Awesome. Great. That's- So- Go ahead, Pepe. So, Jay, thanks a lot for you, for your time. It was really interesting on how... and talking about the importance on how to build a personal brand online. This is not just for marketers. This is for everybody who just want to have their name outside because if, even if you're the best lawyer, if you're the best businessman, nobody is going to contact you if they cannot find you. So this is the best way how to increase your visibility online, and now it's more important than ever. So thanks again, Jay, for all your time and hopefully to have, uh, to have you again in the show. Yeah.

33:46Thank you, guys. It was my pleasure, and it was great to, uh, speak with you today. You too, Jay. We really appreciate it. Well, thanks everybody. Thanks for listening. We hope you got something out of this, and, uh, we look forward to having you on the next episode.