Turning CLM Setbacks Into Success with James Donald

Made with speech-to-text software, so a few words may be off.

0:00You're listening to the Contract Heroes Podcast, your one-stop shop for all things contract management. And now here are your hosts, Marc and Pepe. Well, James, thanks so much for joining us today. And, uh, before I- I flip things over to Pepe, to give us a better understanding of what we're gonna be talking about, we'd love to get a, a little bit more information on your background and how you ended up in this role and, and inside of, um, you know, this conversation, what we're gonna be talking about today. Sure. Thanks for inviting me along, guys. The, um, yeah, so I'm a, I'm a lawyer by background. I trained in an, uh, an American firm in London in 2006, and the way that it works over there is you do a two-year training contract. And I traveled a little bit during that training contract, and at the end of my experience doing my training, I ended up living in Dubai. And so I was a new associate and worked for a couple of years in that law firm, and then, you know, I called a recruiter and I said, "I really wanna go in-house somewhere."

1:01And they were like, "Well, okay, where, you know, where do you wanna go if you could pick anywhere?" And I said, "Well, either airlines or hotels." And they found me a hotel job, and I ended up at, um, one of the big hospitality players, uh, InterContinental Hotels, and worked for them for 10 years. And then moved over to Accor in the Middle East, doing a transactional role, doing a lot of hotel development deals, franchising, management, that sort of thing, in a real sort of operational legal role. And then an opportunity came up a couple of years ago when I was speaking to the general counsel, and she was like, "You know, we wanna look at trying to explore and expand, uh, our legal operations and, and, and have someone lead that. Is it something you'd be interested in?" I said, "Yeah, that, I mean, that sounds amazing," because there was a lot of things that I would complain about process-wise. She asked me if I was interested in, in being involved in it, because I think there was a lot of opportunity of things that we could do. So I ended up doing that and started the job a couple of years ago.

1:59My job's changed a little bit now, and I'm, um, deputy general counsel for, for most of the, most of the business, but I... The legal operations is, is a big part of my mandate as well. So I have a team with me, and we look at all of the different initiatives that we can do to make legal work better and support the business better. Awesome, James. So having us, this conversation is one, one of the main benefits of going to cool events like the CLOC one we were in Vegas. We met with James, uh, during an event, and, uh, it's amazing because you, you can meet, like, a lot of people. We had a couple of beers there and talking about legal ops. Yeah. And we just decided, uh... Well, well, I ask you, tha- thanks a lot for accepting our invitation to come to talk about, uh, your experience and, and about le- legal ops. And this is something that we want to talk about during, during this episode, uh, legal operations and, of course, technology, how you can implement technology, because Accor, uh, for the people that don't know of them, just, just Google them.

3:00They're just, like, huge company. Yeah. They have, like, a lot of hotels there, and I, and I, and I, I can imagine how complex it's to, you know, to, to streamline all your processes. Eh, we want to kick off this conversation, James, just, uh, if, if you can tell us about any recent initiative you have taken to, uh, of course, streamline the legal processes within your organization, and how these changes foster collaboration between legal and other key business departments. Sure. So you're right. For those who, who don't know Accor, it's, it's a, it's an enormous hospitality hotel management company, and we have something like 40-plus brands, and it's, you know, all across the different spectrum for all the way from luxury to budget. We're all over the world. And, and the way that we've always acted, I think, as a business, is to be quite decentralized. So we were always... we always had quite a few regions.

4:01Each of those regions would act quite autonomously. And the way the legal department worked certainly was that you'd have the legal teams in each region report up into the business of each of those regions, which basically meant that you had a lot of legal teams acting close to the business, which is great, but then aligning on some of the, how do you get alignment across all of the business activities that you're doing at a global level? That was a little bit harder, because you had each region staff write their own processes, do their own thing according to their regional business needs. So when I came into this role, one of the things we identified was that w- there was a big opportunity to align on, in different areas across different things within legal and to better support the business, right? So what are the key things that we wanted to do to look at how we best support the business? And, and what...

4:58We started mapping it out when I, when I joined this role a couple of years ago, and we realized there's a lot of low-hanging fruit. So it was almost like, what do we go after first? The real key initiative that we'd undertaken prior to my joining, uh, the role was to look at a CLM solution, which we can talk about a bit later. When I came in, it was like, right, well, we've got this CLM solution that we were halfway through an implementation process with, and we were using that to get all of our contracts, particularly for hotel management and hotel franchising with all of our different owners, into one place. But then what was all of the other stuff that we could do? And we realized, for example, that we had a lot of different templates around the world, like, you know, legal templates that we use, because again, you know, each region was doing their own thing with templates, designing templates as they saw fit for their region, but we didn't then have a lot of consistency and alignment a- a- across, across those. So we said, "Right, well, what can we start doing? What can we look at?" And we've since rolled out, like, a global hotel management agreement that everyone now uses across the board.

6:02We've looked at in- implementing a single, uh, NDA- For everyone to use, which we're using the one NDA platform for that. And getting things to look the same and use the same knowl- terminology and feel the same, so it feels like, you know, everyone's on the same page with us. And then we've done all, you know, we've done stuff on policies as well, looked at sort of what policies we have because historically, again, we've... where we've had policies, they've been regionally m- implemented. So if you had a legal review policy, it was kind of a regional legal review, uh, policy that would, that would apply to just that specific region. And we looked at and we said, "Right, well, how can we expand this? How should we take all of these different policies that we have and align them and create one policy so everyone is doing the same thing?" So we looked at that, and we- we're doing it at the moment for commercial contracts.

6:52So you've got the bulk of a lot of legal work is done in hotel management and hotel franchising contracts with third-party owners, but a lot of other stuff is done on just your general day-to-day commercial contracts. So we wanted to find some rules of engagement, keep it quite simple, and enable the business to self-serve a bit more. So we go to them and we say, "Right, guys in the business, well, here's some templates for you. Here's some training, here's some guidance about what we do. We're looking to have AI support this process as well." But then we give them the opportunity to just kind of help themselves in many cases and do, um, a lot of the basic stuff themselves, and legal comes in at certain points in that process as, as required. And then, as I say, like le- CLM is our big, is our big project. That's what we really started on four or five years ago. Uh, we didn't have a single source of truth for all of our contracts. We didn't have them all in one place. As we all know, data's the new gold. So how do we extract all this rich contract data? How do we leverage it?

7:54That was the whole way of looking at, at the so- some of the key initiatives that we've undertaken. Right. And what I really like about what you're saying, James, is that, and before we jump into the CLM implementation, because right now what you're talking about, it's something that we've been discussing a lot during our recent episodes and other seasons. A lot of people like Lucy Bassli and every- and everybody in the space call it like the CLM readiness. You know, like you need to get all your templates, especially when it's going to be a global deployment because, because of you, you said they're like regional, they're like different processes. The regulations to different countries, they all different, they have different kind of, you know, compliance obligations, uh, you know, leasing or franchise agreements is not the regulated the same in the, in the different countries. But one of the things that I would say is, is the most important is especially with the processes, and I really like, uh, that you called about the legal review policies.

8:55You know, it's like, uh, in our experience, I don't know if, if it's the same with you guys, but it's what does legal needs to review, right? What kind of, uh, work can be done directly by the, by the commercial department so they can become like, let's call it self-service. So my follow-up question, James, would be like, like how did you work with this, and did you did it everything in-house, or do you think it is important to have like an external consulting, uh, firm that has some experience in this? Or how did it go during this CLM readiness? Sure. So I think when we go back, so we implemented this, we started to implement the CLM solution. We bought it four years ago. The implementation process took a lot longer than I think any of us were expecting, and there was a bunch of reasons for that, both on the vendor side and on, on our side.

9:53But one of the things we realized, I think, is exactly that. You know, the CLM readiness, we didn't really have. We didn't have these consistent templates. This is only something we've done in the last couple of years. So when you're trying to load lots of different templates into a solution, or you've got lots of different processes that vary regionally, of course, it's really hard to get that to work when there's so much complexity. So we realized that that was something we should have done probably more of. And I think it's... We did work with a consultant on some of this stuff, but it was really on the main implementation part. I think there was a real benefit to working with a consultant on the pre-implementation part. Like, what do you wanna do? Where do you wanna go with your system? What are you trying to achieve? Some of these questions, because everyone wants, I think, a CLM, and they realize, and they're starting to understand a lot more of the value of having a CLM. Some of these questions are just assumed.

10:51Like, oh yeah, we, we need a CLM, and we've gotta do this, and this is why we need to have it, 'cause everyone else has one. And I think to really sit down and consider what you're doing, how you're doing it, whether you've got the right processes and systems in place to enable a successful CLM is a big part of that, and then looking at where you can step change some of that before there is a big implementation process that begins. I think, uh, you, you really answered the question, I think, James, but it sounds like the doing the CLM project or going out there and evaluating tools and, and purchasing something was kind of the catalyst that made you actually take a step back and say, "Hey, we, we need to reevaluate, you know, our processes." And is that something... I, I mean, first off, is that, is that how that, that kind of went down? First, yeah, it is sort of. I think, I think we-- when you think about doing a CLM, there is a lot of... There's so much opportunity, and it's such a...

11:44You can have a lots of stuff that can be done in a CLM, and I think we were very happy to have, first of all, just get all of our contracts in one place and extract some data from our legacy contracts. That's already like a, that was already a big thing for us to, to have that initial base platform. But yeah, certainly just having that, being able to do that was, was really important. And, and I think, you know, what, what we wanna kind of jump into here next is- Some of the issues that you did face in the implementation. You know, maybe, maybe we can highlight, uh, some of the issues that the team faced, maybe some things that you didn't know going in that now, you know, you might have a much better understanding on, so that, uh, anybody out there that's listening who might be either searching for tools, about to start their implementation, you know, that they can get an understanding from somebody who's been through it before what to watch out for. So, you know, I, I think at a high level, what are some of the things you might caution other folks on when either they're evaluating tools, are there specific questions you think that they should be asking?

12:40And the second part, which we can dive into a little bit later, is more so around things to watch out for when you actually do get into the implementation. Sure. I think for, for us, we learnt a lot during that initial process, and this is why I think it's really important to have the right consultant on board early so you... who can challenge you on some of these decisions that you think you need to make. So, for example, the contracts that we were trying to digitize. Well, first of all, we're taking legacy contracts. Hotel management and hotel franchise agreements are big, big agreements. Like, they run from 40 to 100-plus pages. So there's a lot of data in there, and they're 20-year agreements, right, in many cases. So they explain how you're gonna run and manage the hotel system on behalf of a third-party owner. So there's a tendency to wanna take lots of data out of there to give every department in the business as much information as they need.

13:39So one thing that we did, which we definitely wouldn't do again, and we're going through another CLM implementation now, and we've been very clear about this, is do not take too much metadata. Be really clear on what data you want to extract from those legacy contracts and what data you wanna capture going forward. We took 300-plus pieces, and then you realize that when you're trying to do an extraction of legacy data over 5,000 big agreements, that is a huge undertaking. That was... That we hadn't appreciated. So it was all manual extraction. There wasn't really any AI in play. So you're looking at manually extracting through an offshore outsourced resources services team, 'cause we didn't have the capacity to do it internally, 300-plus pieces of data out of each and every contract nu- numbering 5,000. That's just to do the getting your legacy stuff in there. That ended up being such an enormous piece of work that extended out the timeline of the project so greatly.

14:46That was something that we learnt that we shouldn't have done. And so I would just say to people, you might need, think you need 300. You probably don't need 30 or 40. It's just this tendency for when you're investing in a program to wanna get the most out of it and do as much as you can. That was really one of, one of the key ones. And then I think as well, not having the right global policies and templates in place we talked about briefly, but then buying, you know, picking the right system, right? Understanding what the differences are because it's, it's a complex market. There are lots of players out there. I think it, it's... This is why I think the value of a consultant is, is imperative, and getting the right person on board to help you through that process is, what do you wanna be able to do? Are you looking at post-signature obligation more? Are you trying to digitize a lot of your contracts?

15:38Do you wanna be able to manage that internally, or do you wanna be able to use admin services that come from, from the provider? A lot of this stuff helps you to set up that success going forward. And then the last thing I would also mention is that I think it's incredibly beneficial to have the right team involved in terms of we have an IT person who is wonderful, a guy called Richard Dudley, who is just a genius when it comes to working with our CLM provider who we're now working with to implement our new system, and he understands all the questions to ask, and I think having an IT person in your team is, is really valuable. Right. And I would say that we've seen this in a lot of times, right? Uh, there's a problems, uh, especially because the first approach when you start talking with vendors is with the sales team, and they wanna close a big one, right? But the thing is that w- when you go... The, this is I can't remember who was our guest that she did, like, this analogy, is like starting dating, right? Doing the demos and everything.

16:41Th- this is all cool because demos, this is, like, very controlled environment, and everything will look perfect. Yeah. But then during the implementation, that's when you maybe when you get married and then, then, then when you're gonna start having some of the, some of the issues there, and you need to have everything clear from before, right? And I think one of the, one of the main challenges for having a successful implementation is that, first of all, you don't have to do everything at once. I mean, of course, maybe, maybe in couple years, in five, 10 years, you would need those 300 data inputs from your contracts. But right now, let's face it, just let's go with phases. Right now, what do you need inside this 100 pages franchise agreement? You need, maybe you only need 40. You, you, you need 20 or maybe 10 just to, just to have them on the system and start working because one of the things is that, that even if the implementation goes smoothly, the adoption is the next challenge.

17:51And if you have a very complex system in place, even when you, when you have, uh, hit all your requirements from the beginning with the scope of work and everything, but if it's, i- if it's very complex, the adoption is going to be a nightmare because instead of having just three or five session of training to use the system, it- It's gonna take a year just so, so, so the people can start looking for this. So I would say that's a good approach, and I think with that experience right now that you're changing, uh, the, the CLM platform, this is something that you already have, right, as, as an experience. And, and it will be like a completely d- different way on how to approach during the implementation phase. Definitely. And we, we, we're really taking the idea of, of launching a minimum viable product, right? So for this, this time around, I forget which tech startup book that talks about this, but, you know, you get your, you get your base product out there, and then you iterate and you build upon it, and you become more complex through time instead of trying to do everything up front, which I think we tried to.

19:01And when you try and do that, as you say, the adoption, we had a lot of people who just say, "Look, we don't understand this. It's very complex. This is not really working for us," which is why we made part of the decision to, to switch. Yeah. I, I mean, I think that's something that we, we talk about a lot, too, is, is that crawl, walk, run approach and, and making sure that you're breaking this down, that you're getting important... B- maybe some folks that are gonna be using the system, or you, you need to train them, the end users, right, right out of the gate. You wanna make this process as easy as possible for them, for them to use. And if they're in other departments who, you know, maybe aren't going to be what we would call, like, a power user of the system, maybe they shouldn't even be in the CLM tool. Maybe we just need to integrate with other applications that they're familiar with so that they can stay where they, where they're used to being a- and, and really don't really need to interact with, uh, with the new interface, like the legal or procurement teams might, might have to. And I think that's right. Because if you think, like, an organization like mine and many big international organizations, there is so much IT stuff out there. Like, it's just constant.

20:04There are more programs being launched. You know, we've got a big new HR talent and culture platform that's, that's been launched that's had a lot of investment behind it. But people are bombarded with new systems. So there's a real question to be asked about, well, can this, can what you need to do live in ex- in existing system with some sort of interface that allows you to push and pull data between them? And that's something we, we've learnt as well. Exactly. We were talking about exactly this with Ella Valente. She's a senior research at Forrester. And, and they released a couple of weeks ago the Forrester Wave report for the CLM. Uh, and one of the main things that they take into consideration to consider who are the leaders in the space is, of course, AI, because right now it's, like, super hot topic, you know, but the integration. The integration is a very important part of the system.

20:59Because even if you have a system that is very flexible, let's say, uh, you know, Agiloft or whatever, and you can build a lot of things in these systems, like maybe it's possible to run your own CRM inside a platform like Agiloft. But the thing is, like, if you already spend a lot of money, you have Salesforce, for example, for your sales team, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. You already have something running there. What you wanna do here is, like, know how to integrate both systems and how they can communicate. Because one of the thing that happens with huge organization like yours is, like, they have different softwares for different departments, and they just- Yeah... became like silos. They have their own databases inside. And, and what you wanna have there is how you can synchronize that information. So whenever, uh, a new lead is coming, okay, how can you put that information inside your CLM system?

21:57And that's one of the main reasons why, uh, integration, it's, it's one of the key elements, and a good one. You gotta know and, and that, that, that's the important part of, of, of having a good consulting firm who can do that integration and can support you to give you some examples, like what other kind of integration they have do because maybe it's not just with the Salesforce. You also wanna have an integration with your ERP system because you wanna, I don't know, uh, know which, uh, purchase order are related to one of the contracts. That's another things that, uh, you gotta take in mind when you're starting to build your CLM. And again, it doesn't have to be at the beginning. Maybe you can start with the minimal viable product with the, with the out of the box. Once everybody is, uh, okay and, and they feel comfortable using the system, okay, let's see how we can integrate it with the CRM. Let's see how we can integrate it with our ERP system. This is a key element on how to have a successful implementation and, and, and avoid all those, those pitfalls.

23:04And this is really where I think the value of a really good consultant comes on who, you know, can help you look at the market and go, "Right. Well, what, what do you want out of this?" And really critically assess what each of the providers can offer and then get you to look at not just the beautiful demos, which you're right in what you say, and everyone does a beautiful demo, but you wanna be able to examine it for your needs and test it in accordance with what you want, and then ask these questions about what haven't you thought about. You know, ju- I've, I'm a lawyer with a lot of transactional experience, but I don't know a lot of these questions. I, I haven't thought. I try to think laterally about some of this stuff, but I need pointers and guidance and so does my team to help us th- think, "Right. Well, consider this and consider that," and that, and that's been invaluable. Right. Yeah, and it...

23:54I mean, you know, we, we do talk about this a lot often too, but and something else that we've seen recently is more of this post go live support or using organizations, using consulting firms to be that, that system admin. Uh, and I think as this space matures, I think we're seeing more of this. So, you know, James, I didn't know if, if your team has had this discussion, if you've looked into, or even know yet, because you're still going through an implementation. Like, does your team wanna be those, those system admins that continue to build out the solution as, as y- the, the organization, um, evolves? Or have you considered bringing somebody on to, to manage the system for you and be able to make those changes a- and, uh, do the things behind the, the scenes to allow your team to, to continue to focus on their day-to-day jobs? It's a really good question because while I have... I'm very fortunate to have a, a wonderful IT-centric person in my team, Richard. You know, if he's doing the system admin for this for- forever to come, that takes him away from other big projects that we would like to look at.

24:55There are many things that we can do, not just around CLM, and my team has a part to play in all of those. So we haven't decided exactly what our long-term strategy is yet. Our implementation ends, uh, at the, uh, in November, and we'll, we'll have gone live with the whole organization. We've called it a phase 1A and a phase 1B implementation. So phase 1A was really the lift across of the existing data that we had in the system, and phase 1B is more of the wider CLM, uh, tools that we never really implemented in the first go-around with, with our previous CLM provider. So at the end of November, our system will be live. The whole organization to the extent, uh, the whole corporate organization will be on it, uh, and we'll be able to do things like NDAs, et cetera, out of there for the whole organization, which is really nice. But then we do have a question to ask about what is our long-term strategy around that, and I think there's a very, there's a very valid argument to say that, do you internalize this, and what cost is that of doing that, and what opportunity cost is if you can't do other stuff, versus do you take someone on the outside?

26:04Yeah, and I think that kind of approach can be used as an analogy when you work with external counsel, so with the law firm, right? You don't have to hire the fintech lawyer when maybe you only have one deal, right? I mean, for example, or a, or a compliance lawyer or whatever. Maybe for just for that, you can, uh, hire somebody else to do it. And in that case, your, uh, Richard, uh, the, uh, IT guy, can be more like a project manager because he understands the system. He, he's been involved into the implementation. But certain things that you can do by yourself, right? You don't need somebody to, uh, update your templates because that's just like editing a Word document. Or maybe building approval workflow because instead of having two approvals, now, now you need three. That's just something that you can configure. So, uh, you, you, you gotta think, like, how can you be auto-efficient for certain things.

27:04But if you wanna move over to something that it's going to be more complicated, like an integration, for example, you don't need Richard to get trained for months to do this when you can just hire somebody and do it in couple of weeks, right? Yeah. So I think it, it, it's all, it's all that sort of, um, cost benefit of, of how we, of how we resource these things. Like, you know, the legal operations team in, in our core for a big organization, I think, after being a clock, I realize it's a reasonable size. There's three of us that, that work on legal operations. There's Rachel as well, who works as the coordinator. And there are question marks about, well, if she did, for example, a lot of the business admin around this, how much does it then take away from her helping with templates? Which, uh, Rachel has, like, a, a background in doing professional support work as well and as, as a paralegal. So a lot of the time that she can help to work on templates, well, that would be taken away if we, if we dedicate her on that. So you're absolutely right.

27:59One of the successful, uh, or hallmark ability of a, of a general counsel, of course, is the ability to continually improve the operational effectiveness, and this is something that it goes very close into the CLM space. Let me tell you why I think that, because CLM is not something that is just like a policy that doesn't change. This is something that goes, and it's, a- and it's gonna keep ev- evolving because you're always gonna see new bottlenecks maybe in couple of months or in a year. Maybe some processes, it's going to become... You will know how to make it more, more efficient. But how can you ensure that your team process are both efficient and capable of supporting the dynamic needs of the organization, I mean, between the legal and the other, uh, commercial de- departments? And I think we've thought about this a lot, particularly with, with now moving to a new CLM platform, redoing an implementation, the cost that brings, both in terms of time and financial cost of implementing that system, making sure it's fit for purpose.

29:08And what we want to do is really get the businesses involved as much as possible, giving feedback, and asking for and receiving whatever w- have people have to say about it. So we did that with the first system, and we received feedback, and that informed us what we were gonna do with our replacement system. And the real key here is we never obviously wanna do another CLM implementation. I haven't got any hair, but if I did, it would be all gray, because it's a lot of time and a lot of effort. And so feedback, right? So we're going around to the business and saying, "What is it that you want out of this? What are you expecting out of this?" And we're doing this early on in the process with workshops, et cetera, but we've got a plan to run that through the process as well with pulse surveys and, and that sort of thing. And it's not just obviously with the CLM that we're doing that. We are spending a, a lot of time really trying to understand the business.

30:16Like, if, if there's one thing that I can, I can suggest young in-house lawyers do, is to really understand the business that they're in, because there's often a criticism that I hear about, "Well, do they really understand me?" Right? "Do they really understand what my challenges are?" A businessperson's perspective when they're trying to get something done, the lawyer will come in and in many cases try and remove, even if there is a tiny amount of risk, remove that risk to non-existence. And I think there's an, a, there needs to be an understanding that you need to understand the whole business priority and what's going on. So it's like my grandmother said, used to say that you have two ears and one mouth, right? You have two ears, so you should listen twice as much as that you speak. So, and I think lawyers can generally do better with this. We're, we're really spending a lot of time just getting that feedback.

31:09And to give you an idea, right, the business development team and legal work very closely together because what business development is obviously trying to do is, is sell new hotels and flag a new hotel under one of our brands. And a lot of that is the speed of contracting becomes very important. So from the day that a non-binding MOU, memorandum of understanding or letter of intent is signed, to the day that you get that wet ink or digital signature on the final contract, how can we speed up and improve that process while protecting the values of the organization? And through speaking to them, a lot of it is about getting the right templates, getting the right processes in place, understanding what can be done by self-serve by part of the organization that doesn't necessarily need to involve legal, and what doesn't, and be extremely clear about it. Because I'm sure we all have examples. Anybody listening to this who's, who's worked in-house will have examples where the business can often go, "Here, I've got a contract.

32:13I don't know what to do with it because it's a legal contract and I don't read these things, so here it comes to you." And then you start to try and unpick what it's trying to do, that contract, and what the objective is. Whereas if you can be clear to the business and say, "Look, we've really thought about this. We think that these are the sort of things we need to get involved in, and these are the sort of things we don't need to get involved in," then the business is like, "Great, we can free up some of your time. We can speed things along at our end." And it becomes a, a, a great collaboration in terms of moving the speed of contracting forward, which is the real goal in a lot of this. Yeah. And I think, I mean, the moral of this, right, is, is working together with departments, being collaborative, so that first off, I mean, everybody understands what o- others' goals are inside of the organization, so you're all on the same page. But secondly, I mean, this is gonna set yourself up for success in, in the future as well, and, and the ability, having the ability to continue building out your processes and, and whatever application you're using.

33:14I, I think that's huge. And the last question, I, I think l- little, I guess, the topic that we wanted to discuss, James, was, was more around, you know, how are you measuring success? And I, I kinda wanna take this in a different direction, though. You know, we can talk about KPIs, and I, I think that there's probably a, a great conversation to be had there. But, you know, I'm curious because this is your, you, you know, the second go at this, are you changing? Has, has your definition of what done and success looks like, is, is it, is it look different than it did when you, uh, initially had the, the first im- implementation that failed? Yeah, great question. I think when you go to market and you speak to vendors about what a software solution, I'm not just talking about CLM, I'm talking about any software solution, can do for you, it can often sound like you're changing the world. You know, like everything changes. It's gonna be perfect. And we all know that getting the basics right is the first step to do this, rather than it's great to have all the bells and whistles and the cherries on top, but you just want the base elements to be correct to begin with, because that alone has such an enormously powerful impact on the organization that the bells and the whistles and the cherries on top maybe move the needle an extra 10%, but the base moves the, you know, moves it the 90%.

34:40So you get the base right, and everything else follows. So we've been very considerate in this new go-around of what we want our objectives to be. And it is, it's very tempting to say, "Oh, we can do this, and we can do that," and, "We must try this," and, "Just imagine if we can do that." But then there's, there's a, there's a voice in my head, and I've really encouraged our, our collaborative partners on this to call it out, just to say, "Well, look, just let's get this right and move forward and iterate from there." So do I think they've changed the objectives? From a high level, no. We still want to do more automating of contracts, basic contracts. But we realize that perhaps at the start, the start of this five years ago, four years ago, we were looking at automating very, very complex contracts, and that we realize is, is hard. You know, if you've got a hundred-page management agreement with so many variables, you realize that's an incredibly challenging thing to do versus a two-page NDA or a 10-page services agreement where there's a lot fewer variables that you can deal with.

35:50So I think on the automation part, we probably have shifted. On the post-signature part, we've also probably shifted, right? 'Cause I talked about the 300 meta- plus metadata we took at the start. I always use this as an example. We would take a piece of metadata about how many swimming pools a hotel had. I can promise you this has no bearing on, on how we license or bill or manage that hotel really in the grand scheme of things. But that was one of the things that we wanted to capture, so we're reducing that. So we're taking far fewer pieces of metadata and being more Consistent, consistently apply them and careful in what we pick, not just on the management franchise agreements, but on all the agreements, right? Do we really need this, or do we really just need the start date, the end date, the fees, who's being billed, the basic stuff? Because that basic stuff takes you to 90% anyway. Yeah, I, I, you know, I think we, we definitely would agree on that, right? And I, you know, I mean, we keep saying this, right?

36:43But, but finding that MVP product, making sure that, that you get the load of, of the heavy lifting done right at the beginning, uh, or, or in that initial phase and making sure that you lay the groundwork for future phases. Well, James, I- this has been a fantastic conversation. Uh, we really appreciate you, you joining us. I guess, you know, final question to wrap up. Any other points or tips you'd like to, to suggest for any of the listeners out there that might be going through a similar process as you? I think the real key one, honestly, is to, is to have the right conversations before you embark on this process. That means leveraging the network that you have. CLOC is a fantastic resource. You know, I, I joined the legal operations world. I went to CLOC and in last year for the first time, and I thought it was just a wonderful, wonderful introduction full of people who were extremely happy to share their experiences, good and bad, to help you avoid pitfalls. So I would definitely say leverage that, pick the right consultant, and take your time.

37:45Like, I think there's a race to say we need this and rush into it, and I think a little bit of money spent and a little bit of time taken to assess, really assess deeply the market about what each vendor provides, the pros and cons, pays huge dividends going forward. Totally agree. I think we def- we're definitely on the same page there. Well, James, this is, uh, this has been great. We really appreciate you coming on again, and thanks so much for, for being here. Been a pleasure. Thanks, guys. All right. Thanks, everybody, listening to another episode of Contract Heroes. This episode of the Contract Heroes is sponsored by Koho Consulting. Koho helps organizations of all shapes and sizes find, implement, and manage their chosen CLM tool. Whether your project is buy or sell side-led, Koho can help you navigate the waters of the CLM space to make sure that you're getting a product that's going to fit like a glove for years to come.

38:40If you'd like to learn more about Koho, visit their website at C-O-H-O consulting dot com.